Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ESC!

[FallenAngelII]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

Seriously, I'm not here to prove any point for you exclusively.

You're here to prove a point to the public at large seeing as how you made a claim.

I found the statistics from 2004 on another forum, which was suppose to show the combined votes for back-up juries that year. That's all I know.

Can you link to it? Also, that's not a credible source. How would they even find out the combined jury votes from way back in 2004?! It's not like they were openly published.

And what exactly is YOUR contribution anyways? The only thing I can see is that you are questioning and jumping on others' opinions. You have alot of opinions on other people's opinions, but I don't see you bringing anything to the table by yourself. So please, show what YOU got before questioning the relevance of others.

I've proven pretty well that the juries certainly have been doing their jobs without any bias against songs sung in langauges other than English for the past two years, you know, the two years they've existed.

As I said before, the 2004 backup juries are nowhere near the same as today's professional juries. They had different guidelines. You claim the juries (implied to be the juries of today) as biased against songs sung in languages other than English.

I suggest you dig through the past two years' jury votes in order to prove that claim and not go back to 2004 when completely different people with completely different guideline (read: none) were judging only as a backup should the televote fail and not as an entity with 50% of the power.

With your general offensive attitude towards people in here, I'm surprised the mods haven't looked into your case.

Contrary to popular belief, "offensive attitude" is not against forum rules.

Also, I asked you for credible arguments to substantiate your claims. You took 2 days to give me something that doesn't prove your case in any way whatsoever. I merely told you to your face that your evidence was worthless. That's biting honesty with a little dash of condescension, not an offensive attitude per se.

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

Contrary to popular belief, "offensive attitude" is not against forum rules.

Also, I asked you for credible arguments to substantiate your claims. You took 2 days to give me something that doesn't prove your case in any way whatsoever. I merely told you to your face that your evidence was worthless. That's biting honesty with a little dash of condescension, not an offensive attitude per se.

Atleast you admit that you're offensive

Don't think too highly of yourself, the statistics I found from 2004 was not in any way to prove a point to YOU out of all people, I couldn't really care. Also, it was a coincidence I found those, whether they are true or not, it kinda show how disastrious ESC would have turned out if those juries would have a say.

I've been busy with other things than analysing the 2009-2010 jury voting patterns (so that you can get some sort of analyse here quickly) Again I don't do this for you you know. I will show you my analyze, don't worry, in the meantime you'll just have to wait. I mean 2 days? I've got other things to do really...

Knowing you on here by now though, you will most probably not even bother reading any analyse because you are right and everyone else are wrong right?

 

[FallenAngelII]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

I'm not so sure the last couple of years winners would have won if they would have sung it in their native language. I belive Satellite with Lena sung in german would have made a totally different impression, and on the other hand, even though I had no clue what the song was about I really liked Molitva when it won, (since it was the last winner who won in it's native language), So I really belive it depends on the song, and the perfomer how it will be recieved.

German is hardly the most accessible of European languages and it's also usually not considered a "beautiful" language. Had "Satellite" been in German, it's possible it wouldn't have won.

But the juries would probably have given it roughly the same points.

 

[evilperson]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

What is the big deal? This program was meant to be an entertainment show where they pick the 'best' song and that song would go on to become the summer hit in Europe (usually). Simple as that. It was never a program that explicitly forced countries to convey their culture through their entry. The whole thing is just one big commercial venture where the winner hopes to make big bucks from the winning song. In the past, winners of the contest translated their songs to many different languages so their song could find some success in each individual market.

If you want language integrity and ethnic elements in your music, you may just have to dig deeper than Eurovision.

 

[damienn]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

German is hardly the most accessible of European languages and it's also usually not considered a "beautiful" language. Had "Satellite" been in German, it's possible it wouldn't have won.

But the juries would probably have given it roughly the same points.

That's what I'm saying, some times it IS favourable to sing in english, not all languages are beautilful to everyone, so let the performers sing in whatever language they want, and let the games begin

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

@ evilperson

Here's where you are wrong. The old Eurovision rules not only stated that songs should be sung in native languages but that it should also reflect local music market and/-or culture. Now that can be interpreted in many ways, but as far as I'm concerned it was part of the old rules atleast.

Also, if Eurovision is just some cheap music show for you (ironically the biggest music show on earth with a long history) and it doesn't matter whether countries send something representing them, then why don't we just delete that part fully (which basically is the concept of Eurovision) and creates Idol copy x100 instead? Because this is where Eurovision is heading anyways.

We can just delete a 50+ years of concept and tradition and let random artists (mostly amateurs) sing songs in English (why not covers like in Idol? It'll be easier and we won't have to deal with some September 1st rule) instead and not representing any countries whatsoever, atleast we wouldn't have to deal with stuff like diaspora voting anymore

Thanks but no thanks, I like Eurovision concept and I don't think all music shows has to be the same, and especially I don't see why the most successful one need to copy something else, obviously Eurovision concept worked fine for this long and I hope it'll work in the future aswell. If someone wants Idol (or its trillions copies) then there's much to chose from, when it comes to Eurovision it was always rather unique, and hopefully it'll keep its concept.

Anyways if juries are put there to choose the next big summerhit for Europe, then why don't they vote for stuff that Jessy Matador then? That had like European summer hit written all over

 

[Mickey]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

Anyways if juries are put there to choose the next big summerhit for Europe, then why don't they vote for stuff that Jessy Matador then? That had like European summer hit written all over

Because it wasn't a ballad?

 

[evilperson]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

@ A-Lister

You've molded the whole idea of Eurovision to things that you want out of the contest, things which it never put forth. Countries entered pop songs into a contest where at the end they picked the winner and it would become a hit. Sure in the past every country sang in their own language, but the winning song was usually always released in different languages in order to ensure that the song would have success beyond Eurovision. The contest has progressed to allow countries even more freedom to choose and send whatever they want to send. If that ends up being the winner of their local Idol show with a regular pop song, then so be it. If it's some drab ethnic ballad, then it's their choice. Nobody is forced to sing in any language, its all done by choice. Looking back on 50+ years of tradition, the majority of the winners were all performed in either English or French.

The Eurovision concept is alive and well and its progressing to the demands of today's musical tastes. Surely that doesn't satisfy everyone but this year there are 43 songs and its a bit ambitious to demand that all 43 songs fit a specific musical taste. There is something for everyone and if there happens to be nothing for you then perhaps you should look beyond Eurovision. Your taste in music is no better than the next person's.

Anyways half of the stuff you replied to me with, I didn't even bring up. Obviously I know where you stand on all of these things because you repeat them throughout the forum ad nauseam. Juries voted for Lena and Satellite which charted in many countries across Europe. There is only one winner and the juries preferred that song at the end of the day.

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

^
I often read "juries voted for Lena", but eventhough there's just one winner in the end, I tend to look at their whole top.10.

Oh, I know very well that Eurovision is progressing and I have nothing against that, ironically the juries seems to though. Because although voting for songs in English, I don't see the ballads they tend to favor having anything to do with contemporary music in general, so in that sense it just doesn't make sense.

To be honest, I've got no clue what the juries are doing and wants with Eurovision, I'm not sure they know it themselves, therefor I wrote these hypothetical guidelines as some idea.

Also if you go back to the first page you'd see that one of the guidelines would be to vote for music that is contemporary and would stand a chance of becoming hits today. But you must have missed that part...

I think there should be a compromise, but promoting these dated ballads that juries tend to love is no reflection of either European culture OR contemporary music, so someone could enlighten me then what's the love for this genre in particular, because as I see it anything is turning Eurovision back into stone age, is the juries love for those type of 80's-90's American ballads.

 

[FallenAngelII]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

You know why countries could do well with song sung in languages other than English way back when? Because up until the mid 90's, voting was exclusively jury-based. Nowadays, the people have 50% of the power. To sing in a language other than English or possibly Russian (or a Slavic language) is to unnecessarily handicap yourself. The televoting public is fickle and often prefers understanding the lyrics unless it's a very special song such as "Molitva" or "Lane Moje", which transcends language.

This is why so many countries choose to sing in English.

A-Lister, if you can't be bothered to go through the jury votes of 2009-2010, then why did you make the claim that the juries have been biased against songs sung in a language other than English? You made such a bold claim, yet not only can't you prove it now, you never could since you never even bothered to go through the past two years' jury voting results. So... you just assumed the juries were biased against non-English songs and then argued it as fact?

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

You know why countries could do well with song sung in languages other than English way back when? Because up until the mid 90's, voting was exclusively jury-based. Nowadays, the people have 50% of the power. To sing in a language other than English or possibly Russian (or a Slavic language) is to unnecessarily handicap yourself. The televoting public is fickle and often prefers understanding the lyrics unless it's a very special song such as "Molitva" or "Lane Moje", which transcends language.

This is why so many countries choose to sing in English.

A-Lister, if you can't be bothered to go through the jury votes of 2009-2010, then why did you make the claim that the juries have been biased against songs sung in a language other than English? You made such a bold claim, yet not only can't you prove it now, you never could since you never even bothered to go through the past two years' jury voting results. So... you just assumed the juries were biased against non-English songs and then argued it as fact?

Oh, so tell me if it's the people's fault that English is doing well, why do we have a record of songs in English when juries were brought back? Why are the juries top entries in English?

Again, I have other things to do than proving things to you really. If I want to make a fair analyze, I'll have to take some time for it, otherwise it's worthless and at the moment I don't have the time to sit through voting statistics.

And If you think I'm so wrong, then prove the opposite then. It's always easy to point fingers, but not always that easy to come up with something.

I will try to showcase what I mean, but you'll have to wait because it's not my priority at the moment. This topic's main subject though is to discuss what we want from juries and ESC basically. I still believe in my theory, I wouldn't have written it if I didn't you know.

People are free to look into statistics themselves, the voting patterns are there. I do think though, that as often with people, people see what they want to see. If you want to prove a point that I am wrong, I am sure you will try to dig up statistics that will somehow show this.

But as I told you, you just have to wait because I didn't have the time to look into it at the moment.

 

[EurovisionSmile]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

I can understand the option of singing in English. I also believe that with the right song, that choice can lead a song to victory or a good placing (as long as the singer has a good accent). However, Beauty of languages (or not) is still an issue that puzzles me a lot...I really don't believe in something like ranking languages.I'm Portuguese and croatian songs in their native language sound great to me. The same applies to Greek, Turkish, Serbian, Swedish and so on...

 

[evilperson]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

Oh, so tell me if it's the people's fault that English is doing well, why do we have a record of songs in English when juries were brought back? Why are the juries top entries in English?

How about because those songs were better than the songs that were sung in a native language? Perhaps you didn't think so but the juries of 38+ countries did as well as the televoting public. I don't think the juries influence an increase or decrease in language preference at all and they support a song on criteria beyond language.

I will try to showcase what I mean, but you'll have to wait because it's not my priority at the moment. This topic's main subject though is to discuss what we want from juries and ESC basically. I still believe in my theory, I wouldn't have written it if I didn't you know.

I want the juries to do their job and vote based on their opinions. That's what they do. What further discussion is there?

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

How about because those songs were better than the songs that were sung in a native language? Perhaps you didn't think so but the juries of 38+ countries did as well as the televoting public. I don't think the juries influence an increase or decrease in language preference at all and they support a song on criteria beyond language.

Yeah. A good example is Finland that got televoting support 2010, sending their MOST genuine entry to date, but juries didn't think that was okey obviously.

Televoters liked the French up-to-date in French party song, juries didn't.

But I will come back with the whole statistics when I have the time. But so far I don't see the juries bringing anything good to this contest. I think the televoters (minus the usual diaspora stuff) being much smarter and in touch with both modern music and true to European culture.

I want the juries to do their job and vote based on their opinions. That's what they do. What further discussion is there?

If there's nothing to discuss further, why discussing in this topic really? Not very constructive.

 

[evilperson]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

Yeah. A good example is Finland that got televoting support 2010, sending their MOST genuine entry to date, but juries didn't think that was okey obviously.

Televoters liked the French up-to-date in French party song, juries didn't.

But I will come back with the whole statistics when I have the time. But so far I don't see the juries bringing anything good to this contest. I think the televoters (minus the usual diaspora stuff) being much smarter and in touch with both modern music and true to European culture.

And what exactly are you implying the job of the jury should be, to agree with the televoters all the time? What would be their purpose then? The issue here is that you're not really giving criticism to the juries, but rather using this topic to once again rant and rave about how you don't like the juries, which is fine but we already know that quite clearly.

The juries have a different perspective to add to the voting and any type of analysis that you perform won't be able to really prove anything because you wont be able to dissect the opinions of every single juror who cast their votes during the competition. The juries weren't implemented in order to agree 100% with the televoters otherwise, their addition would be pointless.

If there's nothing to discuss further, why discussing in this topic really? Not very constructive.

What's not constructive is making narrow minded suggestions about the juries and other aspects of the contest that self-serve personal preferences. Perhaps trying to understand why changes occurred in a broader scope would be helpful.

Lets make the contest 100% televoting and make it a requirement that every country sing in their own language and present their culture through each entry. Is this what you wanted to hear? :?

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

Lets make the contest 100% televoting and make it a requirement that every country sing in their own language and present their culture through each entry. Is this what you wanted to hear? :?

Ehm? No? People are enlighten to think what they want and that's the purpose about this topic really.

But I won't answer to arrogant comments in that tone though and if you are annoyed by this topic, why bother discussion in this topic then? This topic is what it is so no need to come in here with comments like "why are you discussing this again".. well don't read it then if it annoys you that much.

I am not disrespectful to you stating opinions, so why do you have to be that yourself?

Annoyed and tired by the subject? Don't comment to it then, no one is forcing you to comment or read it. If all you want to say in every comment is how annoyed you are by this then don't spend the time really, if anything is annoying is disrespect.

And you know what, it's all gonna be about personal taste and opinions so better deal with it. Yours is no less personal opinion than mine.

 

[evilperson]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

^The funny this about your response if that you ignored everything that related to your topic and instead decided to dissect my apparent "arrogant comments".

But you're right about one thing. I really don't care about these same old complaints from you over and over again. I don't care about this subject matter so I'm not sure why I decided to waste my time on this topic. But I'm glad you started this thread, hopefully you'll keep all these complaints confined here and stop spamming them all over the forum.

 

[AlekS]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

You, you, you, you and you.... blah, blah, blah...

I (just like other users) am not interested in both of you discussing each other's personality/behavior etc.


Though, I didn't even hope that the thread with such title won't turn into gadzillion years old ESC (and non-ESC) drama


Oh, and as for the main subject... ESC is already beautiful as it is. With its pluses and minuses.


EDIT: Enough is enough

 

[sannerz]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

I will say this, and this is all I am saying.

Since the juries were introduced, in both 2009 and 2010, after looking at the split votes, the juries have voted more songs sung in their native languages in the top 15 of each final, than the televoters did.

And if the juries are at fault for so much English being in the contest, then this problem would've occurred back when the voting was 100% juries, don't you think?

The move to English is just a current phenomenon because of how international the language has become. The native language will start coming back to ESC soon enough.

 

[Mickey]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

And if the juries are at fault for so much English being in the contest, then this problem would've occurred back when the voting was 100% juries, don't you think?

I think, back then, there was still the language rule.

English has gradually become more popular since the language rule was dropped. I don't think televoting or juries has much to do with it.