Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ESC!

[A-lister]

Does anyone know if Eurovision juries have some sort of guidelines to follow? Or if they can just vote as they please?

Anyhow, last year I wrote that we will see the effect of Eurovision juries' voting patterns quickly. I think we saw it already in 2010 after juries were brought back in 2009 final, and it seems the effect is even stronger this year.

We have less and less entries in native languages, so far we've got the least amount of ethnic oriented entries ever chosen, and "big voices" are being chosen over songs (which makes Eurovision more and more look less of a song contest, rather now more of an Idol sort of competition), is this good? Do we need another Idol/X-Factor? Should all music shows out there have the same concept? Does Eurovision, as the biggest music show and with all its history, really need to copy?

Eurovision costs millions to produce, broadcasters spend alot of money (your tax money), still now big performances and shows are directly being put in the "tacky box", but is it automatically tacky to entertain people in a big expensive show? Why is it bad?

We can see that countries are choosing more and more to cater to some sort of idea of what they believe the Eurovision juries wants, rather than entries they might have been choosing just some years ago. Are countries playing it too safe now? Are Eurovision juries going for safe choices?

I know alot of fans of the actual "EURO" are worried.

Looking at juries' voting patterns, one can see that the chosen entries are reflecting these patterns.

For instance; eventhough language of choice has been allowed since 1999, record of entries in English have been set after re-introduction of juries.

So let's see. Have the juries stopped phenomenons such as diaspora voting then? I don't think so. So why are they here?

What will be left of EUROvision, if all entries will be in English and sounding like it's not representing any European cultures and music markets any longer? Is this good or bad for Eurovision? What will it do with the diversity of the contest?

I think juries should have some sort of guidelines to keep this contest relevant, but still close to its roots.

I think;

Juries should vote for entries that:

• Reflects contemporary music trends - To keep the contest in touch with today's music and keep it relevant.

(Are American 90's ballads really reflecting anything contemporary at all!? :?)

and/or

• Encourage use of native languages - Afterall it's a European contest and should reflect the whole continent and not just some. This is what makes this contest unique.

and/or

• Encourage entries representing local music culture/and trends - For the similar reason as with native language.

What do you guys think?

Do you think the juries are doing a good job? Have they been good for Eurovision? Are they having indirect influence over national selections?

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

*
Now this has partly to do with this year's contest, as it's an overall reflection of how I think bringing back juries have reflected this year's chosen songs, selections etc.

And if you don't agree with me, please be free to share your opinion, as long as you respect mine.

I guess my point of this post is to start some sort of constructive discussion about juries, their role and influence over the progress of the contest, and especially this year's.

Please read my full comment before commenting.

 

[Matt]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

Does anyone know if Eurovision juries have some sort of guidelines to follow? Or if they can just vote as they please?

There are certain guidelines for the juries but I don't have the exact rules.

Anyhow, last year I wrote that we will see the effect of Eurovision juries' voting patterns quickly. I think we saw it already in 2010 after juries were brought back in 2009 final, and it seems the effect is even stronger this year.

We have less and less entries in native languages, so far we've got the least amount of ethnic oriented entries ever chosen, and "big voices" are being chosen over songs (which makes Eurovision more and more look less of a song contest, rather now more of an Idol sort of competition), is this good? Do we need another Idol/X-Factor? Should all music shows out there have the same concept? Does Eurovision, as the biggest music show and with all its history, really need to copy?

And why is it the juries fault? You can see that a lot of acts decide to translate their songs into english AFTER they have won their NF.
It is probably to make this song accessible to a broader group of people. It's a personal preference though about the language though.
But juries tend to vote for songs in the native languages (remember France 2009 or Israel 2010?) vs televoters so shouldn't you blame them instead?


I personally think the juries are doing a good job, definitely better than back in the day when amateurs had the say.
Let's face it. If it was up to the juries certain countries who tend to get a headstart with the televotes would not have that advantage anymore (look at russia 2010 and most people agreed with the juries and NOT the televotes).

I hated what ESC has become with 100% televotes, now it seems a little bit more of a fair game.

From what i read you are blaming the juries for the decrease in quality but I just don't get how you arrived at the conclusion. Plus you have set a rule in your head how juries should vote but that's not really fair to them holding them to the standards you decide were appropriate.

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

There are a few changes I would like to happen:
- An official rule that any participants have to be either geographically or culturally linked to modern Europe.
- Televote and Jury vote given totally equal weighting so that each country gives two sets of 1-12 points.
- The addition of 9 and 11 points so that country's have more chance of gaining points.
- Make Juries vote after the final performances, not the rehearsals.

 

[Matt]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

I do agree with you though about the fact that a lot of countries just are so focused on winning that they miss the point of sending something original and more unique and that is happening a lot in 2011. I don't think it's them trying to appeal to the juries cause using Poland, Georgia, Bulgaria or Slovenia as an example is not something the juries would really go for a whole lot (middle of the road average pop with safe melody and bland lyrics).

My point is, don't get rid of juries.....don't get rid of televotes.

Countries need to stop solely focusing on winning the contest and remember that by being more original and unique, a song will stand a better chance of doing well. I'm just as disappointed with the results as you are this year but nobody is to blame but those who vote for the safe songs (and that's not a jury thing).

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

^

Well, I think though that the general juries' voting patterns speaks volumes.

Taking away a couple of entries, the juries seems to prefer entries in English and what I would call more "bland" entries.

If it weren't for these voting patterns, I would have never draw this conclusion in the first place, now I actually believe that there's a indirect connect. Offcourse, people don't have to agree with me, but I don't really agree with you about juries voting for "unsafe" entries, i'd say it's the opposite actually.

I do agree with you on one thing though; countries being obsessed about winning makes them sort of play it safe. But on the other hand, since the juries have been brought back, the word "safe" has been taking higher dimensions than before.

Atleast some years ago we'd get more entries in native languages, more entries that tried to combine local sounds, and they were fairing pretty well. Juries though have in many cases (for whatever reason?) overlooked these entries, and 2011 is a record of year with English only entries and barely any entry sounding anything outside the typical radio/anglo-cultural dominated music.

I'd have to do a little more research to give good examples, the only one I can come up with right now is Finland 2010 that for the first time (well atleast in a long time) send a really ethnic Finnish entry in native language. This was far more original than many others and the public liked it, but the juries? Nope.

Ironically the juries preferred Finland 2009 with Eurodance and I bet they'd prefer the quite random and generic entry they send this year over what they send in 2010.

But I will take a little more time to analyze their voting patterns, but I can definitely see some connection there.

It may be unintentionally, but in retrospective I'd say countries have always tried to send entries that fits whatever being successful in Eurovision, and when local sounding entries or entries in native languages aren't that successful anymore (thanks to who?), then we see a decline when it comes to those type of entries.

Now, this may be connected to what you said about aim to win, but still if results in Eurovision would have been differently, also with the aim to win countries would chose differently. If suddenly native language entries and more out of the box entries would do well in general, we'd see more of those being chosen in national selections aswell, and the juries could have an important role to play here, but I see they acting in the opposite direction.

 

[lucian-crusher]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

Juries are back in Eurovision to avoid political voting so the jury of a country should vote what the public of that country would've voted if there was no political voting. Also, the juries should not even give 0,1 % on the live performance.

I will give you an example on what I mean. Last year the televoting gasve 12 tom and 10 to . They are our friends so that's geopolitical. Then 8 points from the public went to wich means Romanians liked that song so the jury should've given 12 to . Then we gave 7 points to so the jury should've given 10 to to and so on....

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

^
So you mean it's impossible to like your "friends" songs?

 

[lucian-crusher]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

^
So you mean it's impossible to like your "friends" songs?

It's not imposible but it's realy impossible that a group of peoplr like 2009 and 2010 aswell as they are different songs. The thing is that the jury should not vote the vocal performance or the ,,how close is that song to our country's culture" criteria. The thing is that when a jury gaves 0 points to the Eurovision winer there is a problem in that jury.

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

More examples from this year;

Netherlands might change the song to English
Slovenia confirmed their entry will be translated to English
Bulgaria seems to be wanting to translate to English aswell
Albania already translated theirs
Ukrainian (1st) winning song already got translated
Poland might change their entry to English
Iceland might translate to English aswell

...and people say that juries' voting patterns favoring English doesn't reflect choices countries do for Eurovision?

 

[aletem]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

Having too many songs performed on English this year, will be an advantage for songs that will be performed on their native language. I personally do not want to think that there is any preference with the languages among juries. I do believe that maybe few countries have tendencies to care more about English songs.

 

[Mickey]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

I still think it's too early to draw any significant conclusions about the impact of the juries. There's not enough evidence yet. I'm still going to try anyway.

Last year, they seemed to have a liking for ballads, with a lot of points for Belgium, Georgia and Israel. On the foreign language front, well, they gave a lot of points to Israel. Meanwhile, fewer marks went to up tempo foreign language songs from Serbia and France. I think you can make a much stronger argument for a jury attitude to ballads than you can to language.

The ballad/up tempo balance switches the other way with the televotes, so it's very difficult to form an argument that one or the other will be successful.

I haven't listened to that many entries this year. I'm still clinging on to the aim of leaving something for May. However, there seem to be a lot of ballads and not very good songs in general. This may be speaking too soon, because a lot of people said 2010 was going to be awful and I thought it was the best ESC ever. However, assuming 2011 is more ballad-heavy and of lower quality than 2010, I still don't think you could take it as an ongoing trend. The jump between 2010 and 2011 is too sharp. I think it would much more likely be just a bad year.

 

[FallenAngelII]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

I love how so many of the claims in the OP are wholly untrue. The Eurovision juries encourage "big voices" over good songs? Really? Did you watch the last few ESCs? Did you even listen to Lena's live performance last year? The national juries are doing their jobs, voting for contemporary songs foremost.

Also, the whole language debate is outdated and stupid, in my opinion. Who cares if ESC isn't filled with a bajillion languages anymore? Personally, I prefer to actually know what is being sung about than having to read about it beforehand, having it told to me by a commentator or just plain guessing. Also, why should singing in your native language win you automatic jury points? That's just plain stupid and discouraging singing in any language other than your native language.

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

Also, the whole language debate is outdated and stupid, in my opinion. Who cares if ESC isn't filled with a bajillion languages anymore? Personally, I prefer to actually know what is being sung about than having to read about it beforehand, having it told to me by a commentator or just plain guessing. Also, why should singing in your native language win you automatic jury points? That's just plain stupid and discouraging singing in any language other than your native language.

Stupid and dated for YOU maybe.

There are many of us who actually appreciate more languages than just English. There are many that view Eurovision as something that should represent whole Europe and not just a small part of it.

What's old though is the argument about "understanding lyrics". Firstly, Eurovision was NEVER known for its "brilliant" lyrics, also it's a music competition, not a night for English poetry.

No one said juries should give a song to an entry only because it was sung in native language, if the song itself is not worth it, then obviously not.

But they should encourage it imo, atleast not the opposite as now.

If you can't appreciate all Europe, then why bothering tuning in to EUROvision in the first place? This is not just some music show to celebrate the English language and anglo-saxic music culture. If that's all you want, there are shows like Idol for that purpose alone.

People should step out of their comfort zone and explore that there's more music than just what's being played on your everyday radio. I have to say I find your argument very ignorant and cultural self-centric. Only because Sweden is a self-loathing country (YES it is!) and are so obsessed about everything American and everything non-Swedish, doesn't have to mean all Europe has to follow that mindset.

So yeah, you may find it stupid that this is EUROpean contest, but some actually LIKE that aspect of it.

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

I must stress that this is Eurovision Song Contest, not Eurovision Languages Contest, it shouldnt matter if a song is in English or another language - it should be judged on the quality of the music and singing imo.

 

[goktengri]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

I must stress that this is Eurovision Song Contest, not Eurovision Languages Contest, it shouldnt matter if a song is in English or another language - it should be judged on the quality of the music and singing imo.

I'm agree with it

 

[94ayd]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

Since when has Europe's official langauge become English... I doubt EUROPE's VISION is 100% anglophone...

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

I must stress that this is Eurovision Song Contest, not Eurovision Languages Contest, it shouldnt matter if a song is in English or another language - it should be judged on the quality of the music and singing imo.

Well, I can stress back that it's EUROvision Song Contest and not ANGLOvision Song Contest though.

It's about the Euro - the song - and the vision!

And where does it say singing contest? Singing is important, but this is no Idol show.

There are millions of music shows primarily focusing only on English and Anglo/American music culture, tell me why does EUROvision (with all its history and the fact that it's the biggest music show on earth) has to cater and become the same as those others?

Can't we keep any unique characteristics of this great contest?

And you being a brit, well sorry but Europe is NOT only about English. If you can't appreciate songs other than in English, well where's the song contest then? Then it's just as much language contest (as you put it) or even more.

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

Well there is no European language so one of the many different languages must be dominant - English hasnt just been picked for no reason, it's been picked because more people speak it and understand it than any other language in Europe. The same would occur in South America with Spanish, Middle East with Arabic and so on.
If countries themselves want to sing in English then that is there choice and they shouldnt be marked down for it imo. And heyy, what's wrong with English, anyway?

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

^
Still this is a contest representing all Europe and to assume that English and Anglo culture representing all Europe is very ignorant indeed.

There's nothing wrong in English, I stressed encouraging use of native languages, as far as I'm concerned English is ALSO a native language of some countries in Europe, but not all though, and this is my concern!

I think there should be a choice, but juries should not overlook native languages or promote/favor English over the rest.

It's sad that with all of Eurovision's history, you only seem to appreciate what's comfortable to your ear. Maybe, just maybe, EUROvision is not the right show for your afterall?

I mean are you tuning into a contest representing all the European countries just to listen to your own language? :?

Songs are representing countries you know, that's the whole concept of this contest.