We Are One ... English Swedish Family - ESC is dead

[aletem]

We'll see how the juries voted this year. Tbh, I dislike the voting change. Ranking the song instead of awarding points to the top10 entries is kinda stupid. Not to mention that countries that don't like each other will place each other at the lowest possible spot.

So here are my suggestions for future changes:

Transparency

- ESC must be more transparent, if juries are still involved then all split votes by countries must be revealed and not just the combined split votes for all.

- The producers' choosing the running-order system must be re-changed. The system is obviously flawed, it lacks transparency, can be easily manipulated and is in general not fair. A random draw is the only way to go. However the voting-pattern pots must stay to avoid too much diaspora and bloc voting.

I agree with this. Though, I do not agree that the juries should follow a guideline of whether the songs are ethnic or not, but they certainly shouldn't discard them either because of it.

 

[FallenAngelII]

But it's apparent they don't know much about the other countries music scenes, or if they know they simply don't care because they have a pro-western/anglo agenda anyways.

Neither do most people in the world. A random Swede won't be taking crash course in the Serbian music scene before voting tomorrow.

Anyways you told me to shut up so our discussion is over...

Actually, what I did was basically ask you to prove that "[the juries unfairly favour every] entry out of the western/american/swedish anglo-norm" or shut up. The way to do this would be to do what I asked you to do (twice, in the same post, but still):
Show me 5 entries you consider to be "traditional" and/or "nationally diverse" which the televoters really, really liked and voted for en masse, yet which the juries unfairly snubbed. That would be actual proof of a larger problem instead of just you yelling random arguments without backing them up.

If you simply shut up, i.e. refuse to prove your claims, you are basically conceding that you are wrong and won't even attempt to prove yourself.

 

[A-lister]

We'll see how the juries voted this year. Tbh, I dislike the voting change. Ranking the song instead of awarding points to the top10 entries is kinda stupid. Not to mention that countries that don't like each other will place each other at the lowest possible spot.


I agree with this. Though, I do not agree that the juries should follow a guideline of whether the songs are ethnic or not, but they certainly shouldn't discard them either because of it.

Again, I didn't write just ethnic, I wrote many things but people in here seem to be fixed on that word only...

My main point was juries educating themselves on the countries music scenes, which obviously includes different genres and not just ethnic music.

The whole point was that there should be some clarity made about the concept here, because right now the concept is about entries representing their countries, but no one seem to care about that and there's no clarity about what it actually does mean.

 

[demonl]

Time to force every act to have 100% of musical performers (singers and musicians) and 100% of songwriters to have proper ties to that country.

 

[A-lister]

@ FallenAngelII

I'm not arguing with anyone saying I should "shut up" in any shape or form, I would have gladly continued the discussion but I simply won't now. I don't think rudeness is the way to go if you want to continue this, why should I "prove myself" to someone that is being plain rude?

 

[FallenAngelII]

We'll see how the juries voted this year. Tbh, I dislike the voting change. Ranking the song instead of awarding points to the top10 entries is kinda stupid.

I don't see why you think this is a bad idea. In the old system, when the juries and televoters disagree vehemently on an issue, the entries both agree on might get the short end of the stick.

Not to mention that countries that don't like each other will place each other at the lowest possible spot.

As opposed to in previous years? How would the rule change affect this in any way?

 

[FallenAngelII]

@ FallenAngelII

I'm not arguing with anyone saying I should "shut up" in any shape or form, I would have gladly continued the discussion but I simply won't now. I don't think rudeness is the way to go if you want to continue this, why should I "prove myself" to someone that is being plain rude?

I didn't tell or demand you shut up. I said that you needed to prove what you're claiming are facts are indeed facts and not just random made-up lies or shut up (about this particular issue). Which is actually quite reasonable (loudly and repeatedly repeating a lie is actually much ruder than to tell someone doing so to shut up. You harp on about the exact same issues every single year and yet not once have you proven that what you claim is true).

The fact that you're playing the victim in an attempt to weasel out of having to actually prove that what you're arguing is actually happening and not just made up in your head is quite telling.

 

[A-lister]

I didn't tell or demand you shut up. I said that you needed to prove what you're claiming are facts are indeed facts and not just random made-up lies or shut up (about this particular issue). Which is actually quite reasonable.

The fact that you're playing the victim in an attempt to weasel out of having to actually prove that what you're arguing is actually happening and not just made up in your head is quite telling.

Again, "shut up" is pretty rude... I mean you don't have to act like Laleh... I find you interesting to discuss with, but control your rudeness and we can continue later.

 

[FallenAngelII]

But since you're taking a leaf out of FilipFromSwede's playbook by pretending like you can't possibly do your job of sourcing your claims because, gasp, someone might have been rude to you, I'll do your job for you.

Since 2009, these are the "nationally diverse" and "traditional" entries the juries have voted for significantly less than the televoters:

2009:
Armenia - Inga and Anush - "Jan Jan" [J: 71 (15th) | T: 111 (9th)]
Bosnia & Herzegovina - Regina - "Bistra Voda" [J: 90 (12th) | T: 124 (7th)]

Both of these can be partially excused slightly by the fact that the juries distributed their points much more evenly. For example, the gap between 9th and 15th is 36 for the juries, but 52 for the televotesr. The gap between 7th and 12th is 24 for the juries and 54 for the televoters. So while it might look bad that the juries ranked Bosnia & Herzegovina 5 ranks lower than the televoters, keep in mind that those were 5 ranks with very few points inbetween them. In fact, the difference between the juries' 10th and 12th was only 3 points.

2010:
(SF #1 - Differences stayed the same for Serbia in the final)
Finland - Kuunkuiskaajat - "Työlki ellää" [J: 37 (15th) | T: 69 (8th)] - No idea what happened here. Maybe it's just a difference in tastes.
Serbia - Milan Stanković - "Ovo je Balkan" [J: 65 (8th) | T: 92 (5th)] - Diaspora voting likely is the culprit here. Still, the gap isn't that huge in the grand scheme of things.

2011:
None. Really. None.


Since 2009, these are the "nationally diverse" and "traditional" entries the juries have voted for significantly more than the televoters:

2009:
Croatia - Igor Cukrov feat. Andrea - "Lijepa Tena" (was the jury save of the 2nd semi-final, J: 10th | T: 13th / Final (no split results for the semi-finals were published): J: 58 | T: 55 - Though it should be noted that because of a difference in entries ranked below Croatia's points in both votes, the televoters ranked Croatia 16th, while the juries ranked then 18th. Still, Croatia wouldn't even have been in the final without the juries)
Israel - Noa & Mira Award - "There Must Be Another Way" [J: 107 (9th) | T: 15 (25th out of 25)] - Love it or hate it, it's quite "traditional" and "nationally diverse".
Moldova - Nelly Ciobanu - "Hora din Moldova" [J: 93 (10th) | T: 66 (13th)]
Estonia - Urban Sympony - "Rändajad" [J. 124 (5th) | ]

Honorable mentions:
France - Patricia Kaas - "Et s'il fallait le faire" [J: 164 (4th) | T: 54 (17th)] - Very traditionally French. Might be too "Western" to count in your book, though, and I won't push the issue.
Portugal - Flor-de-Lis - "Todas as ruas do amor" [J: 64 (18th) | T: 45 (18th)] - While they both ranked this entry 18th, the gap between the jury's 18th and 20th place is huge (33 points!) while the same gap or the televoters' 18th and 21st is a mere two points.

2010:
(SF #2 - Differences stayed the same for the final)
Israel - Harel Skaat - "Milim" [J: 88 (4th) | T: 46 (12th)]

2011:
None.

2012:
(SF #1)
Moldova - Pasha Parfeny - "Lăutar" [J: 107 (2nd) | T: 85 (7th)]

(SF #2)
Albania - Rona Nishliu - "Suus" [J: 131 (1st - Margin to 3rd was 28) | T: 131 (3rd - Margin to 1st was 58)]

(Final)
Albania - Rona Nishliu - "Suus" [J: 157 (3rd) | T: 106 (8th)]
Estonia - Ott Lepland - "Kuula" [J: 152 (6th ) | T: 78 (12th)]


Don't count:

2009:
Hadise gave a very bad live performance, which why the juries ranked her so much lower than the televoters. You could barely hear her during the chorus. She looked like the world's most convincing drag queen because the only voice that could be heard singing was that of the male backing singers'. Albania's Kejsi Tola and Romania's Elena were likewise likely also punished for the same reason and mostly because their stage shows were very disjointed and made little sense. You're free to argue that any of these actually count though and I will engage you in that discussion if you so choose.

2010:
"OPA!" winning its semi-final is due to Greek diaspora votes. Feel free to debate me on this, but I believe it to be true and thus this shouldn't count.

2011:
Norway - Stella Mwangi - "Haba Haba" [J: 29 (17th) | T: 56 (9th)] - Her terrible vocal performance killed her chances with the juries and it was fair. Again, feel free to disagree.
Greece - Loukas Giorkas feat. Stereo Mike - "Watch My Dance" - See 2010.

2012:
Russia - Buranovskiye Babushki - "Party For Everybody" - Let's not even touch upon this entry.


Bottom Line:
For every "traditional" or "nationally diverse" entry the juries did not favour as much as the televoters, they favoured 1.5 as many "traditional" and "nationally diverse" entries as the televoters. Sometimes, their tastes just clash. Let's also not rule out running order draws, diaspora voting and block voting. In the grand scheme of things, the juries are not a detriment to "traditional" and "nationally diverse" entries at all.

 

[LakZaNokte]

Time to force every act to have 100% of musical performers (singers and musicians) and 100% of songwriters to have proper ties to that country.

we already have that

it's not working that well, as u can see (mostly cause esc turned into swedish la-la land)

 

[FilipFromSweden]

There is nothing wrong with the jury just because some beautiful ballads and whole ex-yugoslavia missed out on the final A-lister, its just that your favourite songs did not qualify and thats why you never wanna watch ESC again..

Hadise gave a very bad live performance, which why the juries ranked her so much lower than the televoters. You could barely hear her during the chorus. She looked like the world's most convincing drag queen because the only voice that could be heard singing was that of the male backing singers'. Albania's Kejsi Tola and Romania's Elena were likewise likely also punished for the same reason and mostly because their stage shows were very disjointed and made little sense. You're free to argue that any of these actually count though and I will engage you in that discussion if you so choose.


I noticed that too, in the semi final she was excellent but in the final she did really bad..

 

[LalehForWD]

Neither do most people in the world. A random Swede won't be taking crash course in the Serbian music scene before voting tomorrow.

Haha, brilliant!!

 

[KingOfKaroke]

At the end of the day English is one of the most widely spoken languages across the entire planet (mainly thanks to USA). Therefore, in order to win the contest a country is more likely to sing in a language that is most widely understood and as such recognized so they can grab as many votes as possible. I personally couldn't care less whether they sing in english or their native tongue and I think it should be the individual country's choice. As the BBC has shown consistently over the past dozen years singing in english doesn't make a jot of difference if the song is bad, the performance is bad and they do no publicity whatsoever.

Perhaps the reason the swedes dominate the contest is because they actually deliver the goods. I don't see songwriters from the UK, France, Holland, Switzerland etc queuing up to contribute. Maybe because sweden's songwriters/producers are actually interested and a put a bit of effort in is why they dominate.

I do agree that the jury system does need some work though. I would like to see clearer and stricter guidelines issued to them (and those guidelines openly made available), a longer deadline for submitting their votes and an increase in jury sizes (7-9 would be a good no. in my opinion). Also I'd like the EBU to bring rules governing the age and gender composisition of the juries back so that they better reflect a wider group of peoples musical tastes.

For the record I really liked Armenia's and Romania's entries and would have voted for them if I could. Also the juries have done alot to improve the rep of ESC in the UK (I comment on other countries). Without them it wouldn't be the Eurovision, it would be the Scandinavian/Baltic/Balkan Song Contest. Not because of Political voting (which I have never believed in and still don't) but simply because these countries have similarities in things like culture or language or music taste etc.

At the end of the day though, just relax. Sit back, enjoy the spectacle and don't worry about 'meaning' or 'purpose'. Juts have fun, that is the most important thing.