EUROVISION 2023 - General Discussion thread

[ESC United Mod Team]

This thread is for any general Eurovision 2023 discussion not limited to or specifically about any country's national selections or song choices.

 

[Ajeje Brazorf]

So, last year everybody was so underwhelmed because of Ukraine winning tele by a landslide, this year everybody is so angry because of Sweden winning jury vote by a landslide. What's next?

Don't get me wrong, I was underwhelmed by the results too because I love when Tele and Juries pick the same winner, but it's not something that happens often. I'm against Televoting only, against Jury only, but I agree something needs to be done to have a fair competition. I think the only solution is lowering jury power (I will say 33% jury, 66% televote will work), because I think Ukraine winning in 2022 was unavoidable, Sweden winning in 2023 maybe too, but it could have been more close.

What have the last three three years of Eurovision taught us? Well, they taught us that no matter from where the points come, three countries will pretty much always be succesful: Sweden, Italy and Ukraine again in the top 6 certify they are the real powerhouses of modern Eurovision (the fact they split equally their wins in those three years synthetizes it well), Finland is not to far behind though: despite their poor result in 2022 Grand Finale, they are constantly improving and UMK has become one of the toughest National Final in Europe. I think their time will eventually come. These three years after the CoVid break also told us that Big 5 are improving, but are not yet ready to become powerhouses: we have seen what Uk and Spain are capable to do if they send the right act at the right time and France is solid, but underachieving. Germany, at this point, is really underappreciated: they certainly did not deserve another last place, not this year. I'm impressed by Lithuania's regularity: all three years they achieved good results and they gained some momentum too: hope they will continue on this path, because it seems to pay off.

 

[Chorizo]

I hope the current jury system will be reformed soon.

Sweden might want to change the rules again when they host but reducing the influence of the juries after winning just because of them would look like admitting that Sweden shouldn’t have won, so I’d be very much surprised, if they did anything like that.

Furthermore, Sweden has profited more from the juries than any other country, winning twice just because of them and securing top results in other years when they flopped in the televote. When Sweden hosted in 2016 after winning thanks to the juries, they pushed for a reform that gave the public slightly more power, but I’d be very much surprised if they contributed to any major change to strengthen the public vote beyond that. This year, the televote was strengthened further in the semis and with the introduction of the Rest of the World vote, but this is not enough to prevent the juries from wielding undue influence.

The jury system should be reformed significantly. We need juries to prevent the return of the 2000s, but their job should just be to make sure, the contest isn’t overrun and dominated by joke acts and to balance the diaspora vote. They should not favor a country so much that the juries ultimately decide the winner against the will of the public, assuming the public doesn’t vote for a joke act. In such a case, the juries should step in, but merely preventing bad winners and deciding the winner are two different things.

I think a possible change could be to give a higher number of points to the songs favored in the televote or to give points to more countries. The winner of the televote could get 16 instead of 12 points, for example.

 

[PollyWantsACracker]

So, last year everybody was so underwhelmed because of Ukraine winning tele by a landslide, this year everybody is so angry because of Sweden winning jury vote by a landslide. What's next?

Don't get me wrong, I was underwhelmed by the results too because I love when Tele and Juries pick the same winner, but it's not something that happens often. I'm against Televoting only, against Jury only, but I agree something needs to be done to have a fair competition. I think the only solution is lowering jury power (I will say 33% jury, 66% televote will work), because I think Ukraine winning in 2022 was unavoidable, Sweden winning in 2023 maybe too, but it could have been more close.

What have this three years of Eurovision taught us? Well, they taught us that no matter from where the points come, three countries will pretty much always be succesful: Sweden, Italy and Ukraine again in the top 6 certify they are the real powerhouses of modern Eurovision (the fact they split equally their wins in those three years synthetizes it well), Finland is not to far behind though: despite their poor result in 2022 Grand Finale, they are constantly improving and UMK has become one of the toughest National Final in Europe. I think their time will eventually come. These three years after the CoVid break also told us that Big 5 are improving, but are not yet ready to become powerhouses: we have seen what Uk and Spain are capable to do if they send the right act at the right time and France is solid, but underachieving. I'm impressed by Lithuania's regularity: all three years they achieved good results and they gained some momentum too: hope they will continue on this path, because it seems to pay off.

I have no problem with anybody winning thanks to televote.

What am I supposed to say? That people who gave 300 or 400 pts from all around world to one act are all deaf and I'm the only one right?

That can happen only in the ESC Bubble and here on the forum where they persecute you if you don't understand the grandeur of their fanwank.

When it comes to juries, it's completely different thing.

E.g. Croatian jury this year was comprised of all people who couldn't win not even Dora or who competed at the ESC year after year and have never qualified. Had they ever been musically competent, wouldn't they manage to win Dora at least?

3 of them have no music education whatsoever.

It's the type of people who wouldn't recognize Mozart or The Beatleas had they heard them.

Who are they to rate anybody? Nobody literally.

These type of people decided a winner yesterday on a contest I spent 15.00 EUR voting.

Well. Not anymore. Last time this year and never again.

 

[SpiritofKeiino]

I have no problem with anybody winning thanks to televote.

What am I supposed to say? That people who gave 300 or 400 pts from all around world to one act are all deaf and I'm the only one right?

That can happen only in the ESC Bubble and here on the forum where they persecute you if you don't understand the grandeur of their fanwank.

When it comes to juries, it's completely different thing.

E.g. Croatian jury this year was comprised of all people who couldn't win not even Dora or who competed at the ESC year after year and have never qualified. Had they ever been musically competent, wouldn't they manage to win Dora at least?

3 of them have no music education whatsoever.

It's the type of people who wouldn't recognize Mozart or The Beatleas had they heard them.

Who are they to rate anybody? Nobody literally.

These type of people decided a winner yesterday on a contest I spent 15.00 EUR voting.

Well. Not anymore. Last time this year and never again.

Same with Irish jury, the act who NQd the year below is usually on the jury, I don't like that.

 

[Ajeje Brazorf]

I have no problem with anybody winning thanks to televote.

What am I supposed to say? That people who gave 300 or 400 pts from all around world to one act are all deaf and I'm the only one right?

That can happen only in the ESC Bubble and here on the forum where they persecute you if you don't understand the grandeur of their fanwank.

When it comes to juries, it's completely different thing.

E.g. Croatian jury this year was comprised of all people who couldn't win not even Dora or who competed at the ESC year after year and have never qualified. Had they ever been musically competent, wouldn't they manage to win Dora at least?

3 of them have no music education whatsoever.

It's the type of people who wouldn't recognize Mozart or The Beatleas had they heard them.

Who are they to rate anybody? Nobody literally.

These type of people decided a winner yesterday on a contest I spent 15.00 EUR voting.

Well. Not anymore. Last time this year and never again.

Well, this actually is a good point: jurors should be professionals and judge professionally, so I think it's time for the EBU to make a clear statement about this.

As I said, I'm not against juries, I'm against biased juries, that is what should change. If for example San Marino has the best song and performance, I expect them to vote for it, not for some other act just because it is more popular, or because they are neighbours, or because the country they voted for is more strong or has a better musical industry. That is the point of having juries: they shall be unbiased.

But how should they choose what is better? In my opinion there are 4 main different things to evaluate in a performance: vocals, staging and/or choreos, composition and production, lyrical content. That makes the overall impression of the song. There isn't one of this things which is more important than the others, so all of these should be judged equally. The jurors should be experts in order to evaluate fairly an entry, and when I mean experts I mean possibly the best ones from every country. I don't feel it has been the case in the recent past, but I hope something will change after this year 's drama...

 

[I bims]

Last year, some of Ukranian televotes were of political nature. Let it be pity, let it be protest, whatever (not saying all votes were)
So this year people voted for Croatia for the same reasons (to support Ukraine) and suddenly Croatia is a joke entry that does not have to be taken seriously? Come on!

I didn't even say a word about Croatia in that post?

 

[I bims]

I have no problem with anybody winning thanks to televote.

What am I supposed to say? That people who gave 300 or 400 pts from all around world to one act are all deaf and I'm the only one right?

That can happen only in the ESC Bubble and here on the forum where they persecute you if you don't understand the grandeur of their fanwank.

When it comes to juries, it's completely different thing.

E.g. Croatian jury this year was comprised of all people who couldn't win not even Dora or who competed at the ESC year after year and have never qualified. Had they ever been musically competent, wouldn't they manage to win Dora at least?

3 of them have no music education whatsoever.

It's the type of people who wouldn't recognize Mozart or The Beatleas had they heard them.

Who are they to rate anybody? Nobody literally.

These type of people decided a winner yesterday on a contest I spent 15.00 EUR voting.

Well. Not anymore. Last time this year and never again.

Yeah the contest would be taken much more seriously, if the jury would consist of respectable people that know what they are talking about.

 

[PollyWantsACracker]

Well, this actually is a good point: jurors should be professionals and judge professionally, so I think it's time for the EBU to make a clear statement about this.

As I said, I'm not against juries, I'm against biased juries, that is what should change. If for example San Marino has the best song and performance, I expect them to vote for it, not for some other act just because it is more popular, or because they are neighbours, or because the country they voted for is more strong or has a better musical industry. That is the point of having juries: they shall be unbiased.

But how should they choose what is better? In my opinion there are 4 main different things to evaluate in a performance: vocals, staging and/or choreos, composition and production, lyrical content. That makes the overall impression of the song. There isn't one of this things which is more important than the others, so all of these should be judged equally. The jurors should be experts in order to evaluate fairly an entry, and when I mean experts I mean possibly the best ones from every country. I don't feel it has been the case in the recent past, but I hope something will change after this year 's drama...

One more thing except professionalism.

Juries should also be more versatile and come from different musical backgrounds.

As in The Voice, where you normally have a rock artist, a rapper, one traditional music, and one who represents classic pop / modern pop.

Had it been so, we wouldn't have had a situation as in 2021 when Maneskin came barely top 4 and Shum barely top 10.

Also, jury votes yesterday for Luke Black. 14 jury points! Can that entry be rated on same merits and by same criteria as Estonia? No!

 

[MopManMoss]

Good news everyone, Spain did win after all. They won the race to be the first country to have finished in all 26 positions

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1657674756047421443

 

[Ezio]

Wow Spain was on a roll the last 10 years.

 

[Lindon]

In a long summary of the contest by ORF online it is written

With Loreen and "Tattoo", a genre has prevailed that has always had a chance of winning for several years: radio-friendly pop that doesn't really offend. Sweden is also the great specialist for this, it is not for nothing that songwriters also supply all US music stars with Swedish-style songs. And what is not needed there is hawked to other Song Contest participating countries.

 

[MopManMoss]

Has Gustaph caused a diplomatic incident between Greece and Cyprus??

 

[lolita]

Same with Irish jury, the act who NQd the year below is usually on the jury, I don't like that.

I think it is situation with basically every jury, from each country, which makes it even more absurd just...

 

[AlienSoul]

I think they should get rid of the televote and just have the juries

 

[FilipFromSweden]

From what I can see on Spotify Global Viral Top 50 Charts from my Spotify app:

1. Finland
9. Austria
18. Switzerland
20. Australia
24. Moldova
25. Croatia
27. Czechia
29. Sweden
30. Serbia
31. Slovenia
34. Belgium
36. Cyprus
37. Portugal
41. Armenia
42. Poland
45. Germany
47. France

Surprise Israel and Italy didn't make it. Wonder how the chart is being collated. Interesting to see Switzerland so high up.

Viral is ... yeah. Go look at the real top 50 chart, in which Loreen is the only Eurovision entry there at #46

 

[FilipFromSweden]

Just got home from Liverpool. What can I say? It was perfect. Liverpool, the BBC and the UK couldn't have done a better job at hosting Eurovision as well as making it Ukrainian themed. All over town TONS of British people wore Ukrainian decorations and flags to show solidarity and love. Eurovision Village was 10/10, attending the jury show was 10/10 and the bar we saw the live final at was 10/10 and the celebration got crazy once Loreen was announced as the winner. Going to EuroClub after to celebrate the win just made it the best night of my life

Do I feel bad for Finland? Not really, we gave them 12 in the televote and they were the ONLY ones to give us 0. Sure it doesn't look good of me to expect points by auto, but you have to admit it's sus when even Italy gave us televote points. It's just been a bit intense and exhausting being a fan of Loreen: never once have I said anything negative about Käärijä and only praised him, yet it's just been a bit toxic at times. Also got a lot of dirty looks from people with the Finland flag.

 

[Andromache]

I think the juries need professionals and maybe more people in the juries. I wouldn't change it to 30% tho. 50% is fine. And the juries made the right choices this year imo at least when it comes to the Top 3. Their Top 3 makes sense and imo these three performances were better than Finland.

 

[crashworld]

Replicating this from the Austria's thread ala the opener's televoting results and if being an opener has a significant impact on the televoting results:

I went back to look at the past openers from 2010 to 2023 and tabulate the results (comparing their grand final and semi final televoting results).

Ignoring the factor like the quality of the opener VS the overall quality of the songs in semi-final & grand final (which is very subjective), It seems like there is trend of the televoting scores dropped pretty significantly for the opener compared to its SF televoting results. Another factor to consider is that because there is a bigger pool of songs to snatch the points. However, the difference is pretty significant, 7 occurrences out of the 11 have a decrease of at least close to 60%.

Interestingly, only 2010 and 2017 got an increment. And then Ukraine is the only outlier to have managed to get consistent televoting scores for SF and GF after the running order has been determined by the showrunners.

 

[lilka]

I think they should get rid of the televote and just have the juries

You mean in Eurovision in general or in the national finals?

Well, if we want to have Sweden winning every year...

 

[nudiecrudi]

Personally i don't have any problem with Sweden winning. I was sure 100% she was going to win. She wasn't even my top 10 but the rules are very clear and i'm convinced that we need jury+televoting system.
I don't think the trend will change in the years to come and Sweden will still be a jury-friendly country. With Italy returning after 14 years break, the swedish hegemony was a bit shaking because we showed to Europe that there is another way to be successful. Year after year Italy gets excellent results without having that favour from the juries, without thinking of ESC, singing in italian and staying always faithful to our cultural and musical heritage. To me this is the formula to contrast "the swedish hegemony" in Esc. I know that isn't easy, many countries don't have such a strong musical background, but some steps are done, Spain with BF ( the artistic direction should change its point of view, less stagings and wigs and more quality music) and hope France will have a different approach then choosing randomly. The signs that the public wants originality and authenticity are clear, just have a look who won the televote in the past years. Songs with strong national identities, Portugal, Israel, Norway, Italy, Ukraine, Finland.