WorldVision Chat Box

[Amir]

Why does everything need a discussion?
You feel like sending out reminders? Sure go ahead! I have done so the last time I hosted.
You feel like you need reminders? Then I guess this isn’t the right contest for you.
I joined over 100 editions ago and I remember a time when reminders were common and sanctions not as harsh. We basically had non-voters every edition, sometimes up to like 5.
So as far as I can tell, we can notice a positive change out of this rule

 

[DenizESC]

The rule is a bit stupid imho

So from what I understand, people saying they missed because not being notified is what made this rule come to life?

 

[Genesis]

I kind of understand the idea behind enforcing such a rule, but I have to agree with Uto. Personally, it doesn't make a difference to me if reminders are allowed or not, but I believe that strictly forbidding them makes way less sense, than giving the option to hosts to decide, whether to use them or not. Also, what is the most important I think is, if it was written down in the rules, that reminders are optional no one could really argue with it. If somewhat one still believed that they are right, it would just mean that they don't know rules and therefore shouldn't be allowed to play the game in the first place.

 

[Uto]

You had a good entry, but South Korea literally just won and Iran has won in the past so please don't take that path with saying if a European country sent it then it would have qualified.

Dear mister ‘I could send my own fart and still qualify’ (is still middle of the road ‘pop’ #4dchess), it’s not really much of a controversy given that the problem described led to the inception of Orient Matsuri and has been posited many times before. Fact that sometimes there might be an example here and there that runs perpendicular to the pattern described does not mean this pattern is not there. There isn’t much anyone can do except to point out the issue so that’s what I do.

Similar to this I think the amount of blockvoting is abhorrent in WV. Whether this is mainly because people are just narrow-minded or just want to vote for their friends is not exactly clear to me, but this too seems to be an issue to me.

I will not ever be silent on things like this. We can’t have a rainbow without rain.

 

[Gabe]

Dear mister ‘I could send my own fart and still qualify’ (is still middle of the road ‘pop’ #4dchess), it’s not really much of a controversy given that the problem described led to the inception of Orient Matsuri and has been posited many times before. Fact that sometimes there might be an example here and there that runs perpendicular to the pattern described does not mean this pattern is not there. There isn’t much anyone can do except to point out the issue so that’s what I do.

Similar to this I think the amount of blockvoting is abhorrent in WV. Whether this is mainly because people are just narrow-minded or just want to vote for their friends is not exactly clear to me, but this too seems to be an issue to me.

I will not ever be silent on things like this. We can’t have a rainbow without rain.

You have your music tastes. Other people have theirs. You will vote according to your music tastes. Other people will vote according to theirs. You liking certain types of music but not others isn't narrow minded, that's just your taste. Other people liking certain types of music but not others isn't narrow minded, it's just their taste.

Not sure how it's "abhorrent" for people to vote for music that they like... this is an online song contest. I think you're taking it a little too seriously.

Btw, I think it's a massive shame you didn't qualify. I gave Iran 6.

 

[Uto]

You have your music tastes. Other people have theirs. You will vote according to your music tastes. Other people will vote according to theirs. You liking certain types of music but not others isn't narrow minded, that's just your taste. Other people liking certain types of music but not others isn't narrow minded, it's just their taste.

This is just standard post-modernism and it's tiresome to me. It is not true. Some things are better than others. Some things are an injustice. Some things are an atrocity. If you're not allowed to speak about anything nothing will ever change. It's the death of reason, it's the march of the mindless. You should believe it to be your DUTY to question, yet here you are doing the opposite declaring all things equal regardless of what they might represent.

Not sure how it's "abhorrent" for people to vote for music that they like... this is an online song contest. I think you're taking it a little too seriously.

Because it leaves little opportunity for success for those who don't lick the asses of those in the established blocks nor for those who try to be a bit more adventurous in their choices. I think this casts a dark shadow over WV. It is not without reason that a group decided to split off. None of this is hard to understand. Whether I'm serious or not is totally beside the point. I made one remark and basically got told to be silent. Are you happy if I say you should just shut up because I disagree? Don't you think that is a bit... fascist? It triggered me, I think I have the right.

Btw, I think it's a massive shame you didn't qualify. I gave Iran 6.

Iran thanks you for the points obviously.

 

[DenizESC]

I get there is disagreements here, but like can we, when someone decides to voice their disappointment on the results or show some concerns regarding the contest, can we stop doing everything in our power to instantly diminish their feelings and gang up on them, ridiculing with clique energy with your part of the group... Sending 49 memes about why this person is being the joke etc. or trying to come up with shady comebacks, it's not cute at all.

This is why I heard from so many outsiders who play other contests, that they'd actually be scared to even try the WV bubble. It's sad that anyone even would feel that way when this is an online game and everyone should just be having fun.

Maybe try reflecting a bit, when you respond to someone it's rude to just straight up ridicule them, especially with a (fairly) new user which should be treated like a guest. You read and try to understand the point they're making and respond on that specific text first, so they have the feeling they're being heard at least. After that, you can make general statements. This is basic grade 3 mannerisms guys, it's not that hard.

I can understand where Uto is coming from because iirc, when his song was played at plug, there were 3 mehs within 5 seconds last edition. And this isn't me trying to be dramatic, it was actually within 5 seconds or less.

 

[Ausesken]

I wonder who decides the criteria to say what music is good and what music is bad, and why they are the ones who decide that, and why these have to be the criteria and not others (for example, how a song makes me feel and to what extent I feel a connection with it, which of course belongs exclusively to subjectiveness). If we were all experts in music we would all have "analytic tools" to rank the songs and get a more "objective" result, but it happens that this contest is made of amateur people. Many of us don't know much about technical aspects of music, so the primary element for us to decide our points is simply whether we like the song or not, if it's beautiful, if we like the melody, the drop, etc. So, it's a contest based on music tastes because otherwise being a professional in music or having some kind of training (academic or whatever) should be one of the key requirements to take part. Then, on the other hand, I admit that the fact we previously know the artist, or that they have had a lot of promotion worldwide, etc... can have an influence on our votings, and it's more likely we know and have heard of Western artists. But even if they are well known singers and groups, if the participants don't like the song or not enough, they will flop, as we have seen many times.

And I'd like to specify that everybody can express how they feel and what they think, as long as they are respectful towards the other participants and their feelings too. It's common sense; if you can't help but showing a hostile attitude when presenting your ideas and arguments, maybe the forum is not the best place to do it.

 

[Leydan]

Interesting topic to raise about being respectful and allowing people to voice their opinions. Because I agree with it completely, Olga and Deniz are both right. I think overall this specific topic has been rather respectful from the people who have replied. People are absolutely entitled to give their opinion how them opinions should not be at the expense of peoples moral integrity, any personal grievences should be aired directly with said people in private. Also for that matter people are just as entitled to reply and disagree. Uto is entitled to his opinion for sure, and everyone else theirs. People disagree allows for good debate and no one is getting shut down.

As for the actual topic I agree with Olga and Gabe in that people have their own individual taste and considering this is a game here for fun it's no surprise that people will vote within their 'taste' and what they enjoy. I don't think there is anything wrong in that, while also don't think there is anything wrong with people being more adventrous and 'anayltical' with their choices. It's what makes WV fun and interesting that there is different music here. We shouldn't start measuring each other by our own standards. As for the success for Western/European music over Asian or, African or whatever, well considering the participants list is made almost entirely of Europeans it's no real surprise that Western/European music comes out on top. Considering some of the recent results and in the past it's proven enough that other parts of the world can succeed.

 

[Uto]

I wonder who ... place to do it.

The argument is basically invalid, it feigns justification for ignorance while there can be no such thing when you were obviously aware of the thing to be conscious about. What I mean in concrete terms is that the fact that you or anyone else for that matter can't claim to be an expert does not mean you can't make an effort to think about why you vote the stuff you vote and whether your alleged complacency is justified. I don't mind if you disagree with anything, but so far what has been said by me is that I think there is a lot of blockvoting in WV and that non-Western countries get a rough deal (originally West condensed to just Europe) and all I get is hollow phrases about how people vote according to their taste and how a taste is something that can't really be quantified. Bullshit. You're fully conscious of what you're doing when voting. It's not hard to think like 'oh I haven't heard much of that, what a great find, let's give this country some points' or like 'well, I'm not a fan of viking shit, but this I can vibe with for some reason, let's push some chips their way' (idk as vikings were rapists though). That's not voting according to your taste, that's voting because you support variety. What I'm saying is that we need more of such reasoning, because I've seen some nasty results by now, especially for non-Western countries sending stuff that isn't all too Western, but hip-hop and fast-paced rock also seem to struggle for instance. And if you're going to be like 'yeah well, that's just your opinion man'. Fine, it is indeed just my opinion. But just think about it and see if it holds any merit instead of turtling would be nice.

 

[Ausesken]

The argument is basically invalid, it feigns justification for ignorance while there can be no such thing when you were obviously aware of the thing to be conscious about. What I mean in concrete terms is that the fact that you or anyone else for that matter can't claim to be an expert does not mean you can't make an effort to think about why you vote the stuff you vote and whether your alleged complacency is justified. I don't mind if you disagree with anything, but so far what has been said by me is that I think there is a lot of blockvoting in WV and that non-Western countries get a rough deal (originally West condensed to just Europe) and all I get is hollow phrases about how people vote according to their taste and how a taste is something that can't really be quantified. Bullshit. You're fully conscious of what you're doing when voting. It's not hard to think like 'oh I haven't heard much of that, what a great find, let's give this country some points' or like 'well, I'm not a fan of viking shit, but this I can vibe with for some reason, let's push some chips their way' (idk as vikings were rapists though). That's not voting according to your taste, that's voting because you support variety. What I'm saying is that we need more of such reasoning, because I've seen some nasty results by now, especially for non-Western countries sending stuff that isn't all too Western, but hip-hop and fast-paced rock also seem to struggle for instance. And if you're going to be like 'yeah well, that's just your opinion man'. Fine, it is indeed just my opinion. But just think about it and see if it holds any merit instead of turtling would be nice.

Yeah, we can all do that. But giving points to something that I label as "well, it's a brave choice for a song and it has interesting things in the composition (always aware of my ignorance in composition) but I don't really care" means not giving points to something I like and I want to listen to again. Why should I ignore what I like only for the sake of diversity? Is that fair for the participant that sent the song I like? I don't expect to qualify if I send Spanish hip-hop, because who on earth would think "oh, this is quality" if they don't have a clue about the lyrics and the lyrics is the main attractive of it? I don't know, I think people will always prioritise their music taste than other factors like originality, diversity, etc. I understand you don't like that, but our point of view is not less valid than yours imo.

 

[Genesis]

You're fully conscious of what you're doing when voting. It's not hard to think like 'oh I haven't heard much of that, what a great find, let's give this country some points' or like 'well, I'm not a fan of viking shit, but this I can vibe with for some reason, let's push some chips their way'

I find myself doing this at times; like I may not be a fan of particular entry, but I will appreciate its originality and the fact that it's trying to approach things in a different way. It probably won't score high points with me (if I only vote for it simply because of said reason), but I will always throw some points.
In a way, I kind of understand you Uto and feel you. I used to say exactly the same things (maybe not in the same tone or level, but you get the point). Heck, even nowadays I may not be too happy with certain entries doing too well or too low. But the thing is, you can't change people's tastes or tell them how to vote. How to play the game. If you want to break down songs to a single matter in order to evaluate them, fine. But telling others that they should too is not nice. Remember it is just a game, and as games should have some rules, they should also be fun to play. You shouldn't force on others your play style.

 

[Uto]

I find myself doing this at times; like I may not be a fan of particular entry, but I will appreciate its originality and the fact that it's trying to approach things in a different way. It probably won't score high points with me (if I only vote for it simply because of said reason), but I will always throw some points.
In a way, I kind of understand you Uto and feel you. I used to say exactly the same things (maybe not in the same tone or level, but you get the point). Heck, even nowadays I may not be too happy with certain entries doing too well or too low. But the thing is, you can't change people's tastes or tell them how to vote. How to play the game. If you want to break down songs to a single matter in order to evaluate them, fine. But telling others that they should too is not nice. Remember it is just a game, and as games should have some rules, they should also be fun to play. You shouldn't force on others your play style.

I never told anyone what to do. I shot holes in defenses and declared my own position. I suggested a change in the way people think about things. On the other hand I see people coming in one after the other to very kindly tell me to shut the fuck up. It's not going to happen because silence is just a thought never had, a lesson never learned. So your reaction, even if meant well, is just the next passive aggressive reaction to me and will also be dismissed. I repeat that none of what I said was controversial. It's not a strange thing to call for people to be conscious of the lack of diversity that is the result of their voting patterns.

 

[Genesis]

I never told anyone what to do. I shot holes in defenses and declared my own position. I suggested a change in the way people think about things. On the other hand I see people coming in one after the other to very kindly tell me to shut the fuck up. It's not going to happen because silence is just a thought never had, a lesson never learned. So your reaction, even if meant well, is just the next passive aggressive reaction to me and will also be dismissed. I repeat that none of what I said was controversial. It's not a strange thing to call for people to be conscious of the lack of diversity that is the result of their voting patterns.

You are free to speak your mind, but remember that it works both ways. I am merely trying to explain why things happen the way they do. My intention was never to tell you to shut up, although remember that your "march" may just start to be ignored at some point as, just like you, we are simply players. None of us needs to spend time trying to help you understand, but in my case, I thought I may just write down my own few cents, hoping that maybe you will get something out from it. Problem is, that you seem to have such a defensive stance, that no matter what is being said, you are taking it as an attack.

 

[Stargazer]

Asking people to throw pity points to songs, basically calling for diversity quotas, is the opposite of what this contest should be in my opinion. Some people will unfortunately have unconscious biases towards this or that, but I don't see how this would make the contest any better, especially for those playing with less successful countries. Surely they'd start second guessing every point or good placing they get, whether it was earned because people actually liked the song or whether they got it because people felt sorry for their previous lack of success?

There isn't that much block voting in WV, at least not in the traditional Eurovision sense. It just seems that way because we're voting for what we like. It's taste voting, pure and simple. If someone only likes or prefers certain kinds of genres and sounds in music, they'll mainly be enjoying and voting for such entries, which most often tend to be from the same bunch of people. Certainly not always, but usually. I can only speak for myself, but I know that I'm always thrilled when I find a song I love from a country I usually don't enjoy many entries from and I always hope there will be such songs every edition. I love giving points to gems like that, because it's an unexpected wonderful discovery. But it would go against all my principles to vote for something simply because it's not been doing so well, just as it would go against my principles to give points to people simply because we're friends, which I will never do.

 

[Uto]

Problem is, that you seem to have such a defensive stance, that no matter what is being said, you are taking it as an attack.

This is rich. Look at the amount of text being written because someone had the audacity to publicly criticize the general voting pattern of WV. Who here is on the defensive?

 

[Uto]

Asking people to throw pity points to songs, basically calling for diversity quotas, is the opposite of what this contest should be in my opinion.

Dishonest response. There was no call for quota or pity points, there is a call to make an actual effort to be conscious about the effect of the voting pattern one has in a broader context.

Some people will unfortunately have unconscious biases towards this or that, but I don't see how this would make the contest any better, especially for those playing with less successful countries. Surely they'd start second guessing every point or good placing they get, whether it was earned because people actually liked the song or whether they got it because people felt sorry for their previous lack of success?

What? Do you second guess your success as being the result of your behaviour towards those who vote for you a lot? Or do you revel in it?

People vote for various reasons. If taste is such an important factor to most that they see a clear problem in someone calling to give a bit more consideration to variety and diversity it’s not a good look. If there are then even arguments being made that when such consideration would be given it would be taken as a devaluation of the points received I don’t know what to say, that’s just completely delusional.

There isn't that much block voting in WV, at least not in the traditional Eurovision sense. It just seems that way because we're voting for what we like. It's taste voting, pure and simple. If someone only likes or prefers certain kinds of genres and sounds in music, they'll mainly be enjoying and voting for such entries, which most often tend to be from the same bunch of people. Certainly not always, but usually.

Again, what? You deny block voting only to then describe the exact same thing only with a different name. The issue is so bad that there even has to be a fairly complex pot system in place to protect the privileges of the block voters.

I can only speak for myself, but I know that I'm always thrilled when I find a song I love from a country I usually don't enjoy many entries from and I always hope there will be such songs every edition. I love giving points to gems like that, because it's an unexpected wonderful discovery. But it would go against all my principles to vote for something simply because it's not been doing so well, just as it would go against my principles to give points to people simply because we're friends, which I will never do.

You do you. If you don’t think you’re doing anything wrong that is your call to make. All I ask is to zoom out, look at the state WV is in when looking at it through rainbow-stained glasses, and see if you or anyone else can help improve on that in a way. No one is asking for pity points, I’m asking for a reevaluation of how people vote generally. Because I don’t think this contest can claim that it really is WorldVision at this rate.

 

[Genesis]

This is rich. Look at the amount of text being written because someone had the audacity to publicly criticize the general voting pattern of WV. Who here is on the defensive?

It is all because you seem to fail to understand one thing; we are all different. As much as your suggestion is not bad in the essence, the fact is this is not a Most Ambitious/Original/Well produced Song Contest, but it is WorldVision. People send whatever they want and vote according to their own system (whether it's purely based on taste, or they go for a deeper evaluation, and as long as it's within rules). If suddenly everyone only started to vote for the aforementioned songs, this ironically would also create some kind of block voting you keep on seeing and are so against. WorldVision is a fairly diverse and free contest, where we get to see a whole palette of colors. Most of the time we get to have a different type of winning song. The same goes for top positions. I don't know where you see a voting pattern here.

 

[Gabe]

I made one remark and basically got told to be silent. Are you happy if I say you should just shut up because I disagree? Don't you think that is a bit... fascist? It triggered me, I think I have the right.

Saying people are being a bit fascist is just a bit of a stretch. Nobody has told you to shut up. If you post things on a public forum, expect people to respond to them?

I've done tons of editions in Asian countries, I know the frustration it can bring at times. I think most people are sympathetic to your frustrations, it's not fun not qualifying/doing badly and again, I know it (when I started out I went 1 for 14), but - and I'm not saying this is what you meant - there is a reasonable reading of your posts which would say you are suggesting people are acting in bad faith, or deliberately voting you down, or deliberately favouring certain countries for reasons other than their enjoyment of the song. I just want it to be 100% clear that none of those things are true.

 

[Uto]

It is all because you seem to fail to understand one thing; we are all different.

Such grandstanding with an absurd ad hominem, what is this supposed to achieve?

As much as your suggestion is not bad in the essence, the fact is this is not a Most Ambitious/Original/Well produced Song Contest, but it is WorldVision. People send whatever they want and vote according to their own system (whether it's purely based on taste, or they go for a deeper evaluation, and as long as it's within rules). If suddenly everyone only started to vote for the aforementioned songs, this ironically would also create some kind of block voting you keep on seeing and are so against.

If you bang your head against a wall just keep banging your head because if you turn around and keep going you will bang your head against the other wall. Disastrous logic, massive misrepresentation of my point as well.

WorldVision is a fairly diverse and free contest, where we get to see a whole palette of colors. Most of the time we get to have a different type of winning song. The same goes for top positions. I don't know where you see a voting pattern here.

I don't think this is true. Look, if you used to see the issue like you said but now you don’t and speak up against those who speak up aginst the issue what does this say about you? Because I don’t think it’s anything good. Much of the extent of it hinges on the idea that WorldVision is actually diverse. NSC is pissing their pants laughing when you're talking different styles. Countries I don't know for NSC. Top positions? In the new database there is only a single winner that was not from the West and that was Catallena. Old database it takes a while to get any better. If you start off looking back from one edition back it's really just a long list of American and European countries. Well okay there's Israel winning with Dotan, but he's just a Dutch guy who happened to be born there while their parents were on vacation in Israel. There's nothing Israeli about the man. Styles I can't comment, wasn't there, not going to listen to hours of history. Don't see a lot of variety now though and most of that is gone after the semis anyway. I can appreciate if you disagree with me here, this is really just eye of the beholder type stuff, but I should also safely assume you can appreciate how I just can't see WV as diverse at it is now.