The never-ending politics of Eurovision...

[A-lister]

Quote from EBU's facebook today:

Official statement on use of Nagorno-Karabakh flag at Eurovision Song Contest:

The EBU and the Reference Group, the governing body of the Eurovision Song Contest, strongly condemn the brandishing of the Nagorno-Karabakh flag in the Green Room during the live transmission of the first Semi Final on 10 May and considers the flag's appearance in the transmission harmful to the Eurovision Song Contest brand.

The Reference Group has decided to sanction Armenian broadcaster, AMPTV, in accordance with the Rules. The nature of the sanction will be determined, at the latest, by the next Reference Group meeting in June.

We are acutely aware of the tense situation in the Nagorno-Karabakh region, and the ongoing tensions between Armenia and Azerbaijan. We consider the appearance of a flag of a highly disputed territory in the live transmission a serious breach of Rule 1.2.2h of the 2016 Eurovision Song Contest stating that "no messages promoting any organisation, institution, political cause or other, company, brand, products or services shall be allowed in the Shows".

Furthermore, the EBU has imposed a zero-tolerance policy towards the Armenian delegation with regards to breaching the Rules of the 2016 Eurovision Song Contest, in particular in relation to the aforementioned incident.

The Reference Group wishes to point out that any further breach of the Rules of the 2016 Eurovision Song Contest could lead to disqualification from this year's event or any successive editions.

 

[A-lister]

What do you guys think? Should or shouldn't EBU sanction the Armenian broadcaster? Do you think EBU are treating every country equally and view every incident objectively? Discuss (please remember to respect others' opinions and use a respectul language).

 

[Matt]

Yes. I'm glad that the EBU is going to discuss this in June. Some individuals believe that immediate actions need to be taken. But the fact that stuff like that is no longer being accepted, is a step into the right direction.

 

[A-lister]

Here's my personal opinion on the matter:

EBU is again proving its hypocricy and double standards here. Let's take a look at different things and put the potential sanction over the flag waving in perspective shall we?

1) EBU has no problem with Russia entering ESC, a country that is occupying and/-or illegaly annexing territories of other EBU member states and ESC participant countries Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova and threatens others like the Baltic states and Poland that they "might be next in line". We might even go back to Russia next year if the bookies will be correct and apparently this is all fine by EBU. Apparently Russia has been blocking out some parts of previous ESC live shows aswell in accordance with the country's "gay propaganda law" and now we have another jury incident from the country (not the first!) and the only thing happened what that the jury member has to be exchanged?

2) EBU obviously has no problem that the host country Sweden uses Eurovision for political statements and propaganda. This year I of course refer to SVT's use of the "refugee crisis" in its middle act of Semi 1 which is a blatant breach of EBU's own "non-political nature" policy and rules. Regardless where you stand on this issue, this is highly political in its nature. Maybe EBU would even allow the use of IS/IS flags? Afterall a percentage of those "refugees" are IS warriors infiltrating... or maybe it would have been just easier to leave this topic out of the contest no? Afterall it's breaking the rules so shouldn't have been a problem to simply say no to SVT's proposal from the get-go?

3) One day EBU say that only flags of UN recognized states will be allowed, the other day they change their mind, and now they want to sanction a broadcaster who happens to show the "wrong" flag? Either you stick by your rules or you don't! If flags of disputed territory Kosovo and occupied area of Northern Cyprus can be waved in ESC, then I don't see why the Nagorno-Karabakh flag should be treated differently? And what about the rainbow flags, some might argue these are political in nature no?

4) Armenia gets a sanction, but what happened with the alleged yearly cheatings in the past by Azerbaijan buying votes from different countries, blocking numbers and even interrogating citizens who happened to vote for Armenia? Aren't those violations in comparison way worse and "breaching the rules" than waving a flag? Or maybe I'm missing out on something here?

5) Kazakhstan and Liechtenstein have been declined to enter, although both are European or partly European geographically, and while Kazakhstan isn't within the outdated EBU broadcasting area and therefor officially not allowed to enter ESC, EBU again still has no problem breaching their own rules by allowing "special treatment" for Australia, a country that is as far from that broadcasting area as it possibly could get.

 

[nikolay_BG]

This is so sad. I hope that politics will stop messing with the contest.

 

[A-lister]

This is so sad. I hope that politics will stop messing with the contest.

Well, EBU need to stop acting political themselves and maybe then we will finally get a somewhat "non-political" contest...

 

[SpZ]

While I do agree that there are some issues with politics in Eurovision, I am not sure if I would actually want it removed. Eg. when we look at the press conference yesterday, by far the most interesting parts of it were Armenia/Azerbaijan and Russia.

 

[Gordon_Shumway]

Here's my personal opinion on the matter...)

xgood xthank

Very interesting analysis.

 

[0scar]

Iveta and the Armenian delegation was wrong for bringing the Nagorno-Karabakh flag with them. Samra really answered correctly.

This post contains NO opinion about the Nagorno-Karabakh situation between and , I don't intend to pick a side on an ESC-forum, but in this situation EBU is right to punish Armenia.

 

[popavapeur]

i'm torn for the political topic cause I don't want politics to enter the contest but I put a blindfold : Everything in the contest is political : we don't give points to an artist or a broadcaster but to a country. There are some diaspora voting and neighboor stuff, we show flags everytime, everywhere. A song can have a lot of subjects from love to war and since the debut of the contest, we can find lyrics about war.
I think we just have to admit that the Eurovision Song Contest is a song contest with big politics in it and we just have to put "borders" or "limits" to "Which level of political can we keep into the contest". Let's face it, this show will never be apolitical and sorry for those that actually want it, it's delusional.

Now, for the things A-Lister listed : I Think that 1) is tricky, depends on how far the broadcaster goes, we can't really merge the broadcaster and the government into 1 instance, so without any proofs, the broadcaster should still be able to participate, no matter what happens in the country
for 2) I think they handle it very well, the dance looked magistral and even if it's a political act it doesn't spread hate. So you can agree or not on the message that is "accepting refugees" but it was a message of peace and this kind of message is always welcome. It won't change people's mind anyway on the subject.
3) they have to make a statement on it and stick to it. I don't mind the rainbow flag. I don't know if it's because i'm actually gay or because I know it represents a community with no political borders, with no government. I think there's a gap between Crimea and rainbow flag as an example. Rainbowland is not a country, there's no big things involved, the flag just represents a community of people (and of course that's a statement that says "we're still here" for the countries with few or no gay rights but it's -once again- a peaceful way of saying things where the "country" flag involves so much more things)
4) same as the first sentence of 3)
5) Once again, i think that's the point of what i'm saying : there are rules, they need to be clear and EBU should stick to it for the best. I'm not against Australia competing, it's supposed to be a fun song party once a year, Australia or no Australia, who cares, it's just 3min more on my schedule. That's where we're taking the contest too far, it's just music and yes, maybe Kazakhstan and Liechtenstein should enter too but I completely understand why Australia is in and I'm quite happy with it.

Hope it's giving some water to your Watermill

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

This is what happens when you start allowing political songs into the contest ("1944") and start banning flags. Basically, this year the EBU has played with fire and as a result is getting burned. When you have stupid, undesirable and frankly unenforceable rules, or rule exceptions, then you are asking for a mockery to be made of the contest. In the last two nights alone we have seen this with Russian jury scandal and now NK flag.

I wasn't at all pleased with Armenia waving the flag, but I also strongly disagree with banning flags. Perhaps there is an argument that the artists should fly the national flag, but then what do you say about say Joe from the UK who might want to wave the Welsh flag in the green room? Or if an artist from Gibraltar represented the UK, should he/she be unable to fly the Gibraltarian flag as it is claimed by Spain? Or a singer from Barcelona who wants to wave the Catalonian flag?

The best policy would be for the EBU to forget about making unenforceable rules like flag banning, and instead come down hard on genuine breaking of the long-established Eurovision rules, like political entries.


Don't say I didn't warn you though. The second "1944" was allowed to slip through the net, Eurovision's credibility took a nose dive. They should have asked Ukraine to reform the lyrics or select a new song. Eurovision simply can't take action against Armenia for waving a flag when a fellow entrant is singing a song that is politically charged to its core about a terrible event that happened in living memory for some viewers.

 

[LoveHate]

ESC was started for geopolitical reasons, and politics will always be a part of Eurovison. But sure, we can pretend it's all non-political if that makes people feel better.

 

[Dutchball]

Iveta Said that she brought the flag because she wants peace if I'm right. The flag was unnecessary but was it really that offensive or shocking? I don't think so but forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm an outsider.
The delegation is not at fault for anything regarding the flag incident but as A-Lister Said they have bought votes and punished (?) People who vote for . If you punish Armenia for the flag should have been punished for that.

But let's get politics Out and good music in

 

[eerik]

I'm pretty sure there is a list of banned flags/symbols and Nagorno-Karabakh is on that list. It was known beforehand so there is no excuse.


Edit: yeah, that flag is used as a specific example in the official guidelines: http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/article25701904.ece/BINARY/Verklaring+Eurovision.pdf

 

[Brandt]

If flags of disputed territory Kosovo and occupied area of Northern Cyprus can be waved in ESC

They can't be.

 

[anto475]

My God, I'd better check myself into my local mental hospital, I agree 100% with [MENTION=4544]A-lister[/MENTION]!!

1) Russia is doing a lot lot more than waving a simple flag, people have died because of Russia's actions, and they're occupying two countries, and yet we still let them participate normally.

2) While I know I'm completely at odds with A-Lister's policies on migrants and refugees, I totally agree that SVT were pushing an agenda here, and that shouldn't be the case.

3) The Kosovar flag has been waved at countless contests since 2008, I've seen the Palestinian and Catalan flags too, as well as the Welsh and Scottish flags. None of those are recognised by the UN, why should the NK flag be any different?

I'm pretty sure there is a list of banned flags/symbols and Nagorno-Karabakh is on that list. It was known beforehand so there is no excuse.


Edit: yeah, that flag is used as a specific example in the official guidelines: http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/article25701904.ece/BINARY/Verklaring+Eurovision.pdf

Yes but that list was declared void shortly after it was published.

 

[cegs5]

Please, this is like a children's game. The Armenian delegation knew that flying the NK flag would provoke a reaction from Azerbaijan. I don't buy the excuse that Iveta gave in the Press Conference.

[MENTION=4544]A-lister[/MENTION] You can't prove that some parts of ESC were blocked in Russia, that's only the anti-Russian propaganda media, they are full of lies. For example, I've even watched Conchita's video in a karaoke in Russia, there was no problem at all to play music of hers. Get your facts straight or at least don't reproduce gossips without any proof... And have a look at the voting history.

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

1) Russia is doing a lot lot more than waving a simple flag, people have died because of Russia's actions, and they're occupying two countries, and yet we still let them participate normally.

Why shouldn't we let them participate normally? Russia is entitled to participated regardless of its foreign policy - if you disagree with this, that is bringing politics into Eurovision.

And Russia is not bringing bombers onto the Eurovision stage. It is not producing militaristic entries (though the anti-Russian brigade seem to think they should... ) so the situation is no way comparable to other countries engaging in political acts on the Eurovision stage.

 

[Chorizo]

This is what happens when you start allowing political songs into the contest ("1944")

It's curious that you always attack '1944' although you have repeatedly voiced support for Russia's political propaganda, for example for last year's peace song.

 

[Chorizo]

I'm pretty sure there is a list of banned flags/symbols and Nagorno-Karabakh is on that list. It was known beforehand so there is no excuse.


Edit: yeah, that flag is used as a specific example in the official guidelines: http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/article25701904.ece/BINARY/Verklaring+Eurovision.pdf

These rules are completely arbitrary. For example, the flag of Kosovo is allowed, although Serbia doesn't recognize its independence. If the flag of Kosovo is allowed, the flag of Nagorno-Karabakh should be fine too. I can understand that she showed the flag. That was probably in response to the flag rules and she wanted to show her support for the Armenians there. Azerbaijan cannot play the victim card after all they have been doing. They keep violating the rules themselves every single year.