North Macedonia NORTH MACEDONIA 2019 - Tamara Todevska - Proud

[Dessi]

You don't need to "listen" to me (I assume you mean read what I write)? That's completely up to you, ignore it if it makes you happier. People are free to express what they want, you can choose to filter it out if you only want to read "happy thoughts" all the time and people agreeing with you. People often diss the entries I like, that's fine, I don't mind, they have their taste I have mine, I don't go into the Icelandic thread and tell people to not express their dislike for that entry even if it happens to be my fav, that's really up to them. Frankly, my discussion has more to do with juries' choice rather than the entry itself though, I didn't even pay much attention to this entry prior the contest and seeing the jury vote.

No, with "listen" I don't mean read what you write.... I read mostly everything here on this forum, but I don't see many others argue about how WRONG members are when they like a song.... You often argue that songs you dislike are "Childish", "Dated", "Favourite with the judges" and so on.... I think most people like a song cause they FEEL something when they listen to it, and most people get that, but you keep on arguing how wrong they are....
You can't argue with feelings, feelings aren't right or wrong, but you seem to think that they are....
And YES, this upset me.... a lot!

 

[A-lister]

No, with "listen" I don't mean read what you write.... I read mostly everything here on this forum, but I don't see many others argue about how WRONG members are when they like a song.... You often argue that songs you dislike are "Childish", "Dated", "Favourite with the judges" and so on.... I think most people like a song cause they FEEL something when they listen to it, and most people get that, but you keep on arguing how wrong they are....
You can't argue with feelings, feelings aren't right or wrong, but you seem to think that they are....
And YES, this upset me.... a lot!

I think you need to go back and read my comments again, I argue as to why I don't think this should have won the jury votes, if people like it it's up to them, if they can't take different opinions then this is the upsetting part, not the other opinion itself. We are not all here to constantly agree and have the same taste and opinions now are we? It's more upsetting when people attack other forum members and tell them to shut up when they disagree, but clearly we have a different mindset. When did I say that people aren't entitled to their own taste and opinions? Yes to me this song is dated, but that's just my opinion, people are allowed to disagree as much as they want but clearly I am not allowed to have my opinion?

 

[Yoozek]

I think you need to go back and read my comments again, I argue as to why I don't think this should have won the jury votes, if people like it it's up to them

1. " I don't think this should have won the jury votes "
2. "if people like it it's up to them"



So, basically you say everyone can have their opinion and vote for what they like, but it's wrong that so many people liked Tamara and she's won the jury vote.
Sounds like "I don't think so many people should enjoy this song cause for me it's dated and nothing special".
And when yet another member points that lack of logic in your spam, you just keep repeating the same shit about respecting each other opinions instead of start to think about the reason why half of a forum argues with you. After 27k posts, in which 1/5 of 'em contains "<shit stirring part and then> it's just my opinion, I have a right to state it", one would think it's obvious.

 

[Citelis]

Juries have gievn the 1st place to worse songs in the past than this so i don't see any big problem here.

 

[Realest]

......

 

[Citelis]

Raphael Gualazzi, Salvador Sobral and Conchita were all worse than Tamara imo. I'm not going to add Alexander Rybak 2009 since the majority of fans will strongly disagree with me.

 

[A-lister]

1. " I don't think this should have won the jury votes "
2. "if people like it it's up to them"



So, basically you say everyone can have their opinion and vote for what they like, but it's wrong that so many people liked Tamara and she's won the jury vote.
Sounds like "I don't think so many people should enjoy this song cause for me it's dated and nothing special".
And when yet another member points that lack of logic in your spam, you just keep repeating the same shit about respecting each other opinions instead of start to think about the reason why half of a forum argues with you. After 27k posts, in which 1/5 of 'em contains "<shit stirring part and then> it's just my opinion, I have a right to state it", one would think it's obvious.

Where is the contradiction here? Pointing out my dislike of any entry and jury vote does not equal saying people can't like say entry?, if you can't see the difference then the problem of comprehending is on your side "sounds like..." yeah ok... if one wants to purposely misunderstand and twist someone's else's words every chance they get then sure, everything can potentially end up "sounding like" something else... and the fact you still put words in my mouth even when I explained what I meant and you can't respect that shows who wants to drag this discussion

People posts all kinds of opinions about entries and about the juries in here, does it mean they say to other forum members that they aren't allowed to have their own taste and opinions? (sort of like you are spending your time on this forum)... of course not, so maybe stop projecting your own shortcomings?

Anyways, there is really nothing more to add here as I said what I can say on the topic, if people want to twist my words and purposely misunderstand just because they don't agree with my opinion, well then maybe a public forum where different opinions are allowed isn't for them

 

[Mrm]

[MENTION=4544]A-lister[/MENTION]

Can you stop attacking this wonderful entry for once?

It won jury and deserved it so much, even deserved to win the whole thing IMO!

 

[A-lister]

[MENTION=4544]A-lister[/MENTION]

Can you stop attacking this wonderful entry for once?

It won jury and deserved it so much, even deserved to win the whole thing IMO!

I stopped commenting on this entry long time ago , can't help people want to continue a pseudo discussion though attacking people for having their own opinions...

Good for you that you like it, did I say you couldn't? No I didn't, however apparently I cannot express my opinion on the song though? Can we move on?

 

[LeBomb]

Winning its semi? Almost winning the final with just a couple of points? Were the juries on drugs or was this a political stunt to promote the new official country name to the general public?

People can obviously like the entry as much as they like, but I always stressed the issue when juries are completely deaf to the songs and treat this contest as yet another "singing contest" where "big conventional vocals" get favored regardless of the song they sing. I honestly don't care if someone can "belt out" for 3 minutes if the song is boring, banal, dated kitsch like in this case. Now I watched the final with a bunch of people, many of whom aren't even particular fans of the contest, people with different music taste and backgrounds but all agreed when seeing this on top: WTF!? Sure, we all agreed she can sing, but really? The song is so bland it's painful.

I know we often have different music taste in here, which is fine, but one thing we did have in common and still have throughout the years is our like of "Suus", and this is NOWHERE near "Suus" in any shape or form (other than perhaps being a ballad sung by a female, but this is where all comparisons stops). This song clicks all the clichés of a clichéd Eurovision ballad for me, from the banal lyrics of "self-empowerment" to the melody structure and production to the big conventional live vocals... what I hear in this is just another ESC ballad (the bad kind) that I heard trillions of times before the past decades, "Suus" was unconventional, adventurous, art... I can't believe you can hear any similarities? I mean it's fine if one likes these type of "big ESC" ballads like this one, but this has little in common with "Suus".

Well ok, fair enough. I thought the reason you loved "Suus" so much was because of how out-of-the box and "avantgarde" it was (in a Eurovision context that is), that's why I couldn't really get the comparisons as this entry had the stylistics of a very standard Eurovision ballad imo.

Quality??

This ballad would feel just as dated and bland in 2001 as now

I can see this winning a jury vote in ESC 1992 during the heights of the ballad trend back then... but 2019? For real? I mean if people like it it's fine, but if so called "professionals" award a bland dated clichéd ballad that doesn't bring anything musically interesting to the contest and is completely chanceless in the "real world", then we do have a huge credibility issue in ESC (well we had a long time since the juries were brought back, and we had back in those days when juries were ruling the contest alone as well when only dated ballads won almost each year too). So she can sing? Well ok, but this isn't American Idol or The Voice... Duncan can also sing, in fact his vocals are more interesting, add to that that his song is more memorable, more contemporary, has a better composition and actually could bring an ESC winner to the masses for a change... no but then let some "professionals" decide that a more dated forgettable piece is the way to go!

And exactly what is your opinion? I didn't think so, blank... I guess it's always easier to have things to say about other people than actually bringing something to the table yourself.

And no, it's not just "my opinion", try send a song like "Proud" to radios, try to get it on playlists, try to have it succeed on Spotify, I think you will find out the results pretty soon that no one will touch this in this day and age and it is because it IS dated and without appeal, if you like it (since you rarely express your own opinions just jump on others), fine that's your prerogative, but don't act like this is a song that has any life in "real music" in 2019.

I think for your own sake it's better the forum doesn't have age verification, so maybe it works both ways

Completely disagree, for instance where I live now Soldi is already playlisted on the most "contemporary" radio channels, and it's not in English last time I checked. It's simply a cool contemporary song... Proud on the other ... you'll never see it playlisted anywhere except for maybe local Macedonian radios and there's a reason for that... Iceland was fully in Icelandic, one of the smallest obscure languages to have ever entered the Eurovision stage and this was for sure more modern and interesting than most stuff we ever got in Eurovision. USA didn't invent music, in fact a big part of the "American" hits we had for the past decades were made by Swedes even Oh and Proud sounds more like some American Idol ballad than it does coming from Europe, is it modern or on trend though? Never....

your innocence is honestly inspiring. i am not saying songs that are both modern and european don't exist, i am just saying it is 100% impossible to make sure only they are sent to the contest. if the message you send to countries is "we want modern", people will send modern, and a lot of people will send american modern, and they will keep doing that no matter how mamy times the juries say "no, not like that", and that's if they wouldn't just approve the americanised crap. american trends exist and influence other music all the time, it matters EXACTLY ZERO that americans didn't invent music or else you wouldn't cry and complain about "american idol" and the like every single time including in your very next sentence (again, your capability of compartmentalising your own principles is fascinating).

not that proud is even an american idol song anyway (that part being obvious for anyone actually listening to the song but...). i think it was posted earlier in this thread that it's actually similarly composed to SUUS? you know, suus, the old music reality TV show staple. everyone sings it in the voice battles. it's a favourite of blake shelton.

Innocence? Although I don't have as much time anymore, I was always a sort of "chart freak" and liked to follow up on music in different regions, no denying the American impact but you'd be surprised at the amount of "local" hits everywhere, but yeah I guess from a macro point of view (=Europe) it might be easier to come and convince with something that sounds more universal (you might call it American, although many of those American trends you refer to ironically started in Europe but ok)....

I still don't get the similarities with Suus here, that one was an interesting piece of work, cannot say the same here (not talking personal taste really, more strong structure etc).

Anyways, I kind of lost where we were in all this , did I say juries need to only vote for stuff that is "modern" and "on trend"? If that's what you thought then maybe you misunderstood me a bit.

Estonia? That was like a budget more Poppier Avicii demo, hardly particular "modern"...

Nah, juries don't need to go for "radio hits" (although it feels like they're trying to do that in some deluded way, except for maybe Macedonia this year), more that in 2019 to vote a bland dated ballad at top is maybe not exactly exciting. I mean my favorite this year was Iceland, it's not as if I expect any mainstream radios to pick up that song, but at least it was bringing something different to the contest and felt up-to-date (which again doesn't necessarily mean it is mainstream, those are two different things).

So in other words ESC should be treated as Idol / X-Factor / The Voice and only belting for three minutes should be enough? Then why do we even need original songs in the first place if they are secondary in a contest which at least on paper ought to find the best SONG? Sure, vocal delivery is important, but it's not all that should be judged in this concept and we have plenty of singing contests out there, no need to turn Eurovision into European Idol or The Voice of Europe.

Why should we be happy? People have different taste and different opinions, this is not a fan-thread. Some will whine, some will applaud... that's how it goes

I root for songs, not countries. Macedonia often deserved a better outcome than they got imo (they had some pretty good entries, last year was a top. 10 for me but failed on staging mostly). Their best entry will still remain 2012 for me though, here we talk a combo of great vocal delivery and a song actually worth our time.

You don't need to "listen" to me (I assume you mean read what I write)? That's completely up to you, ignore it if it makes you happier. People are free to express what they want, you can choose to filter it out if you only want to read "happy thoughts" all the time and people agreeing with you. People often diss the entries I like, that's fine, I don't mind, they have their taste I have mine, I don't go into the Icelandic thread and tell people to not express their dislike for that entry even if it happens to be my fav, that's really up to them. Frankly, my discussion has more to do with juries' choice rather than the entry itself though, I didn't even pay much attention to this entry prior the contest and seeing the jury vote.

Opinions on other people in the forum isn't really what I referred to as "opinion"...



And again you deliberately misunderstood my post, oh well... nothing new under the sun then.

So we might have misunderstood each other a bit...

Well, it's hardly particularly European either? Or maybe I don't hear what others hear... like you say in the end of the day music taste and impressions are subjective, my issue is not if people like an entry or not, rather I think that if this wins the vote of alleged "professionals" then Eurovision has a credibility issue, but seems like most people are fine with such type of songs winning the jury vote so if this is really what the fans want from Eurovision then well, I guess I'm in a minority then.

I think you need to go back and read my comments again, I argue as to why I don't think this should have won the jury votes, if people like it it's up to them, if they can't take different opinions then this is the upsetting part, not the other opinion itself. We are not all here to constantly agree and have the same taste and opinions now are we? It's more upsetting when people attack other forum members and tell them to shut up when they disagree, but clearly we have a different mindset. When did I say that people aren't entitled to their own taste and opinions? Yes to me this song is dated, but that's just my opinion, people are allowed to disagree as much as they want but clearly I am not allowed to have my opinion?

Where is the contradiction here? Pointing out my dislike of any entry and jury vote does not equal saying people can't like say entry?, if you can't see the difference then the problem of comprehending is on your side "sounds like..." yeah ok... if one wants to purposely misunderstand and twist someone's else's words every chance they get then sure, everything can potentially end up "sounding like" something else... and the fact you still put words in my mouth even when I explained what I meant and you can't respect that shows who wants to drag this discussion

People posts all kinds of opinions about entries and about the juries in here, does it mean they say to other forum members that they aren't allowed to have their own taste and opinions? (sort of like you are spending your time on this forum)... of course not, so maybe stop projecting your own shortcomings?

Anyways, there is really nothing more to add here as I said what I can say on the topic, if people want to twist my words and purposely misunderstand just because they don't agree with my opinion, well then maybe a public forum where different opinions are allowed isn't for them

I stopped commenting on this entry long time ago , can't help people want to continue a pseudo discussion though attacking people for having their own opinions...

Good for you that you like it, did I say you couldn't? No I didn't, however apparently I cannot express my opinion on the song though? Can we move on?

"I stopped commenting on this entry long time ago"

 

[A-lister]

"I stopped commenting on this entry long time ago"

What are you trying to prove here?, that you can collect all my responses back to people who responded to me in a whole thread and make it look like stand-alone comments when in fact most are just responses? I mean really? You can even read yourself that most of these are responses but hey, maybe I am not allowed to respond back if someone quote and respond directly back to me in this thread? Well done Sherlock, good detective job only you failed on delivery

 

[Yoozek]

Well done Sherlock, good detective job only you failed on delivery

He didn't. I've enjoyed that.
And that's just my opinion. I can see that you have different opinion but that's just my opinion. Don't attack me or my opinion for having different opinion than your opinion on his opinion about your opinions which differ from my opinions and his opinions.

 

[A-lister]

He didn't. I've enjoyed that.
And that's just my opinion. I can see that you have different opinion but that's just my opinion. Don't attack me or my opinion for having different opinion than your opinion on his opinion about your opinions which differ from my opinions and his opinions.

And exactly what is your opinion on the topic? If you'd be more opinionated about the actual topic and spend less time jumping on other forum members for not sharing your opinion, you'd be contributing more to the forum, this thread is not about me you know so why this obsession? And yes, people shouldn't be attacked for having different opinions, however attacking people is against forum rules

I'm actually a bit shocked at the mob mentality in this forum, I expected more from Eurovision fans, (knowing that we are sometimes outsiders and have different walks of life and sometimes had to struggle ourselves), than acting like a cliché of a school playground, do you all feel cool behind your computer screens? Does it make you "one of the gang" to be 10 against 1? I mean really? So shoot me for being an opinionated person, I come in here to release some stress from my everyday life, to discuss one of my biggest hobbies and guilty pleasures, maybe I write too much but so what? This is a discussion forum afterall, some people will keep discussion going, while others will make just few comments a year, that's just different personalities, but where does it give people like you and others the right to tell others when they are allowed to speak and when not?

Do you honestly think bullying and mocking is so fun? Does it entertain you that much? Well, you can think whatever you want about me, you don't know me, regardless but that's not the topic of this forum so man up for once and take it up as PM then instead of using your usual suspects around here to make a whole thread about how annoyed you seem to be about me, I might be talking too much at times, but that's my right, you however break the rules over and over. I am not going to leave the forum nor will I stop having opinions so your attempts at "pushing me out" from here didn't work anyways

Look, you're probably going to ignore this message or write a mockery response to it as usual, I am not here to argue with people believe it or not, I am here, like I said, to take some stress out from my everyday, discuss the topics, read news, engage in rankings and games, whatever, I might not always agree with people, I might have lots of opinions, but I am not here to make enemies, however I believe in mutual respect, if people attack me I will respond back. I know that some people in here don't like me, but it's a grown up thing to at least show some respect, I would love for people to contact me via PM if they have some issue and try to get to know me instead of keeping some false perception, but I see that people prefer to use the different threads to create pseudo threads with mockery and attacks instead, that's really sad tbh but ok, I cannot do anything apparently.

 

[Yoozek]

And exactly what is your opinion on the topic? If you'd be more opinionated about the actual topic and spend less time jumping on other forum members for not sharing your opinion, you'd be contributing more to the forum, this thread is not about me you know so why this obsession? And yes, people shouldn't be attacked for having different opinions, however attacking people is against forum rules

I'm actually a bit shocked at the mob mentality in this forum, I expected more from Eurovision fans, (knowing that we are sometimes outsiders and have different walks of life and sometimes had to struggle ourselves), than acting like a cliché of a school playground, do you all feel cool behind your computer screens? Does it make you "one of the gang" to be 10 against 1? I mean really? So shoot me for being an opinionated person, I come in here to release some stress from my everyday life, to discuss one of my biggest hobbies and guilty pleasures, maybe I write too much but so what? This is a discussion forum afterall, some people will keep discussion going, while others will make just few comments a year, that's just different personalities, but where does it give people like you and others the right to tell others when they are allowed to speak and when not?

Do you honestly think bullying and mocking is so fun? Does it entertain you that much? Well, you can think whatever you want about me, you don't know me, regardless but that's not the topic of this forum so man up for once and take it up as PM then instead of using your usual suspects around here to make a whole thread about how annoyed you seem to be about me, I might be talking too much at times, but that's my right, you however break the rules over and over. I am not going to leave the forum nor will I stop having opinions so your attempts at "pushing me out" from here didn't work anyways

Look, you're probably going to ignore this message or write a mockery response to it as usual, I am not here to argue with people believe it or not, I am here, like I said, to take some stress out from my everyday, discuss the topics, read news, engage in rankings and games, whatever, I might not always agree with people, I might have lots of opinions, but I am not here to make enemies, however I believe in mutual respect, if people attack me I will respond back. I know that some people in here don't like me, but it's a grown up thing to at least show some respect, I would love for people to contact me via PM if they have some issue and try to get to know me instead of keeping some false perception, but I see that people prefer to use the different threads to create pseudo threads with mockery and attacks instead, that's really sad tbh but ok, I cannot do anything apparently.

Why you keep starting your answers with "and what is your opinion on the topic"? For me it feels like having to write "Dear Nancy" every time I had to write in primary school back in the day?

You start with asking what is my opinion. Does this really entertain you? Let's clear this out.
First, I've stated my opinion about "Proud" and the fact that it's won the jury vote. You responded, starting with "I don't see your opinion where is it? blank? I though so". Meaning you didn't even care to read the whole post. Instead, you've triggered and went rampage about how no one respects your opinion in here.
Then, I've responded that I've already stated my opinion. Since you didn't care earlier, also this time you triggered yourself with "no opinion? thought so, you're just attacking me. I have a right to state my opinion". It's nice you say I don't have an opinion. This makes it even more clear that you just spam without paying the slightest attention of what people are responding with.
And now, once again. I don't have an opinion. After using the word "opinion" more than 10x. Instead, I'm mocking you for fun because I've noticed that I'm not the only to disagree with you in here.

One thing is funny though. In case someone agrees with you, it's all good. But when someone disagrees, that's when the shit goes down. You're feeling attacked, everyone is threatening, bullying and mocking you. And you keep spamming about a right to state your opinion. Cause no one can't have a different opinion. In that case, looks like they don't have one at all

 

[A-lister]

Why you keep starting your answers with "and what is your opinion on the topic"? For me it feels like having to write "Dear Nancy" every time I had to write in primary school back in the day?

You start with asking what is my opinion. Does this really entertain you? Let's clear this out.
First, I've stated my opinion about "Proud" and the fact that it's won the jury vote. You responded, starting with "I don't see your opinion where is it? blank? I though so". Meaning you didn't even care to read the whole post. Instead, you've triggered and went rampage about how no one respects your opinion in here.
Then, I've responded that I've already stated my opinion. Since you didn't care earlier, also this time you triggered yourself with "no opinion? thought so, you're just attacking me. I have a right to state my opinion". It's nice you say I don't have an opinion. This makes it even more clear that you just spam without paying the slightest attention of what people are responding with.
And now, once again. I don't have an opinion. After using the word "opinion" more than 10x. Instead, I'm mocking you for fun because I've noticed that I'm not the only to disagree with you in here.

One thing is funny though. In case someone agrees with you, it's all good. But when someone disagrees, that's when the shit goes down. You're feeling attacked, everyone is threatening, bullying and mocking you. And you keep spamming about a right to state your opinion. Cause no one can't have a different opinion. In that case, looks like they don't have one at all

Opinion about other forum members is not the same as staying on thread you know? I know very well what comment you refer to, it was 1% opinion on the topic, 99% supposed "opinion" about me having an opinion...

Well, I knew it was waste of time explaining this for you since you continue act the same, have a good day.

 

[Dessi]

I think you need to go back and read my comments again, I argue as to why I don't think this should have won the jury votes, if people like it it's up to them, if they can't take different opinions then this is the upsetting part, not the other opinion itself. We are not all here to constantly agree and have the same taste and opinions now are we? It's more upsetting when people attack other forum members and tell them to shut up when they disagree, but clearly we have a different mindset. When did I say that people aren't entitled to their own taste and opinions? Yes to me this song is dated, but that's just my opinion, people are allowed to disagree as much as they want but clearly I am not allowed to have my opinion?

Yeah, I know your opinion about the juries.... and I think everybody on this forum knows what you think of the juries... But that is NOT what I (and probably others too) are upset with...

You and I have been on this forum (and a lot of other ESC-forums prior to this) for SEVERAL years...
And the thing that upset ME is that you scarcely write what YOU (youself) like or dislike...
You rather write your opinion like "it's the basic nature of something"... like IT'S A FACT... Like it's SCIENCE...
You scarcely write "I LIKE THIS SONG CAUSE...." or "I DISLIKE THIS SONG CAUSE... or ""I HATE THIS SONG CAUSE...." or simply "I DON*T KNOW..."

You often write that "THIS SONG IS CHILDISH".... like it's a FACT... and then you begin building your arguments to why you are right...
And right HERE is where a lot of us just give up.... cause as I said before... YOU can't argue whit feelings.... If you just write that you don't like the song, then everybody would have understood you.... But since you always try to make your "likings and dislikings" as a FACT with scientific arguments, people will be UPSET, cause you can't argue with feelings and emotions... there are no wright or wrong in emotions...

Do you understand me?

 

[Loindici]

This is my winner, since it was really audiophile, simple, and delivered professionally. It's also, probably, because I'm a ballad lover. xyeah

 

[Ezio]

Italy should have won the jury vote. It is beyond me that they didn't. Music, lyrics, performance, meaning, originality, the complete winner's package.

North Macedonia would have been a fair Top 3. This song has been there many times before. But Tamara sold it expensively. Bland? No. Bland I would call the cookiecutter song from Sweden that snatched the apparent jury victory. Too late for love is such a fader. Instant skip.

The Netherlands song is also so boring and mediocre. I did not listen neither before nor after the show to this entry. But 2019 was not an edition to remember. The Top 10 are boring, but even more so are the bottom 16. Honorable exceptions Italy, France, Australia, Iceland. Switzerland put on a great show that looked better in the semis.

North Macedonia belongs to the Top 10 of this bleak year. No doubt about it.

 

[Realest]

---------

 

[Loindici]

Would it be appropriate to call her 'the Macedonian Anouk'? After chains and chains of non-qualification, she brought back the country to one of its best placings.