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Kazakhstan KAZAKHSTAN 2020 - not taking part

escYOUnited

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I suspect that the votes would be different when it comes to the big Contest. Kids vote differently than adults and the big contest has more prestige - hence there will be more pressure on the juries. It's not as if the public in the JESC is comparable to the one of the actual contest.

That's just an assumption. It might be likely. It might happen but it's not our right to neglect an independent country which has parts in Europe and takes part in JESC its right to compete in Eurovision (I know other factors might play a role but that's the first "point" I get from Eurovision fans when they say that they don't want Kazakhstan in Eurovision).

Wait, youre honestly comparing Kazakhstans Juryvote at JESC with their Televote at ESC? Do you honestly think there is a Chance that Russia will not get only 10s and 12s every single Year regarless of the Song? Btw. Germanys Televotes to Switzerland in the last 16 Years since the Introduction of the Powervoting was:

2004: 0 (SF)
2005: 4
2006: 0
2007: 8 (SF)
2008: /
2009: 0 (SF)
2010: /
2011: 0
2012: /
2013: Probably 7-8 (SF)
2014: 4
2015: 0 (SF)
2016: 0 (SF)
2017: 0 (SF, Switzerlad would have qualified with 3 Points)
2018: /
2019. 10

So I dont get why you claim our 10 Points to Luca was Neighbourvoting.

I knew Switzerland was a bad example when I posted it but anyway... Personally, I think that the Swiss entries in last year were utterly trashy and tragic and when Switzerland suddenly sends a good track, it immediately gets 10 pts.

I can still remember Germany's points back in 2014 very well: 12 pts The Netherlands, 10 pts Poland, 8 pts Denmark, 7 pts Austria.
Personally, I don't think Germans are very patriotic and they don't tend to vote for their neighbours in general but one can't deny that IF it happens, no one seems to complain whilst everyone is losing their shit when an Eastern European country gives 12 pts to an Eastern European country (because, you know, they are all the same *irony off*). At least, that what I can hear from casual viewers all the time after each and every edition.

Besides, we shouldn't forget that Russia usually sends very famous artists (Serebro, Dima, Sergey, Polina) = getting a lot of points from countries in which they are popular and famous is logical... whilst Germany or Switzerland tend to submit no names... but if they decide to send something huge, they also get a small advantage in our countries, e.g. No Angels getting points from Bulgaria and Switzerland, Luca Hänni getting 10 etc. That's what I was trying to say.
 

Realest

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I knew Switzerland was a bad example when I posted it but anyway... Personally, I think that the Swiss entries in last year were utterly trashy and tragic and when Switzerland suddenly sends a good track, it immediately gets 10 pts.

I can still remember Germany's points back in 2014 very well: 12 pts The Netherlands, 10 pts Poland, 8 pts Denmark, 7 pts Austria.
Personally, I don't think Germans are very patriotic and they don't tend to vote for their neighbours in general but one can't deny that IF it happens, no one seems to complain whilst everyone is losing their shit when an Eastern European country gives 12 pts to an Eastern European country (because, you know, they are all the same *irony off*). At least, that what I can hear from casual viewers all the time after each and every edition.

Luca was 5th in the Televoting (4th in Averages), and we Germans ranked him 2nd, so you criticize us germans to give high Points to a Topfavourite who got Points from 38/40 Countries? Not to forget, that he won DSDS.

Here as well, we did not vote for them because they were our Neighbours, but because all of them ended up in the Top5 in the Televoting. German TV Top3 were AT/NL/PL. DK was only 10th which is fair for a Country which comes 13th in the Overall Televoting. So Yes, when Germany sometimes gives high Points to their Neighbours its fair, but when Russia always gets 8s-12s from their Neighbours regardless of the Song, even when they are no huge Topfavourites, it is unfair and the Complains are justified.
 

Gera11

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Bring in a (western) country that blocvotes for Sweden, nobody bats an eye.
Bring in an (eastern) country that blocvotes for Russia, everybody loses their mind.

:rolleyes:
 

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^Thats a very naive Points of View.
 

Preuss

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I've only noticed over the years than when an entry does well, the big televoting points usually come from neighbour contries like for example Switzerland this year and Estonia last year, just take a look at the results, and this happens pretty much ever year with various entries - western and eastern countries although I think the difference is that it doesn't happen as frequently in the west than in the east (without looking this up statistically over the years)
 

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I don't level criticism. He got ranked slightly higher than his average score and I don't blame us. Like you said, he won "Deutschland sucht den Superstar". He's known in Germany, he had a great performance and a catchy track.
We need to understand that it's totally ok for Belarus or Azerbaijan or Ukraine to vote for a well-established, popular act for Russia with a great staging as well.
We have seen that Russia can fail as well if the entry sucks (2018)..I'm just tired of the "Kazakhstan shouldn't participate because it will give 24 pts to Russia" argument.

I don't think that all complains are justified because - even though most of their songs suck (in my honest opinion) - they usually send well-established acts. It's not the fault of Eastern European countries that we mostly send no names with mediocre entries to Eurovision.

Btw, the only televoting points Germany got back in 2017 and 2018: 8 pts Switzerland, 2 pts Austria (2016), 3 pts Switzerland (2017) whilst we ended up being last in the overall televoting. Thus, we can assume that we only got points thanks to neighbouring voting or in Jamie-Lee's case, because she was "kinda known" thanks to the Voice of Germany.
We (Central Europeans) do the same... it just has a minor impact because we are a) less countries overall b) more diverse (demographically speaking) but the effect is still there.... Same applies to the UK, btw, it doesn't matter how shitty the entry is, they still get pity-televoting points from former colonies such as Ireland, Malta or Australia.

You say that it's okay for Germany to give high points to its neighbours because the songs are good and perform well in the overall televoting.
Russia did end up being Top 10 in the televoting in 2011, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2019. Thus, isn't it justified that they get high scores from countries X and Y as well?
 

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Bring in a (western) country that blocvotes for Sweden, nobody bats an eye.
Bring in an (eastern) country that blocvotes for Russia, everybody loses their mind.

:rolleyes:

^Thats a very naive Points of View.


It is indeed a very naive point of view but unfortunately, it does exist.

A friend of mine just posted on FB that he's happy to see Poland win JESC because he didn't want to see Kazakhstan win so that it might join the real Eurovision soon. Some fans do support this view.

He even goes further and said that he would like to see Liechtenstein compete because it's at least "Central European".. or that he wants to see Luxembourg and Andorra back.

That's totally fine and I support the idea of having these countries on Eurovision... but if the EBU treats Iceland the same way like Armenia... we shouldn't prevent Kazakhstan from taking part because they are "not Central European" and might be giving pts to its neighbours.
 

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I don't level criticism. He got ranked slightly higher than his average score and I don't blame us. Like you said, he won "Deutschland sucht den Superstar". He's known in Germany, he had a great performance and a catchy track.
We need to understand that it's totally ok for Belarus or Azerbaijan or Ukraine to vote for a well-established, popular act for Russia with a great staging as well.
We have seen that Russia can fail as well if the entry sucks (2018)..I'm just tired of the "Kazakhstan shouldn't participate because it will give 24 pts to Russia" argument.

I don't think that all complains are justified because - even though most of their songs suck (in my honest opinion) - they usually send well-established acts. It's not the fault of Eastern European countries that we mostly send no names with mediocre entries to Eurovision.

Btw, the only televoting points Germany got back in 2017 and 2018: 8 pts Switzerland, 2 pts Austria (2016), 3 pts Austria (2017) whilst we ended up being last in the overall televoting. Thus, we can assume that we only got points thanks to neighbouring voting or in Jamie-Lee's case, because she was "kinda known" thanks to the Voice of Germany.
We (Central Europeans) do the same... it just has a minor impact because we are a) less countries overall b) more diverse (demographically speaking) but the effect is still there.... Same applies to the UK, btw, it doesn't matter how shitty the entry is, they still get pity-televoting points from former colonies such as Ireland, Malta or Australia.

You say that it's okay for Germany to give high points to its neighbours because the songs are good and perform well in the overall televoting.
Russia did end up being Top 10 in the televoting in 2011, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2019. Thus, isn't it justified that they get high scores from countries X and Y as well?

Yes, its ok to sometimes vote for a Neighbour when they send a popular act, but when Armenia
for Example gives 13 Years in a Row only 10s and 12 to Russia, then theres something corrupt.
Or are the 2009, 2011 and 2014 Acts from Russia also huge Stars which justifies them to give them
their 12 Points? And Btw. even 2018 Russia came 11th with a Song with which Switzerland or Austria
would get around 0 Points. Btw. if Kazakhstan participated, Russia would most likely be in the Top 10.
Also they were a bit unlucky that the wrong Countries were in the same Semi.

I agree that Russia sends better Songs then we in general, but that doesnt justify these automatic Points.

These Points from 2016 and 2017 to Germany where totally fair and not automatic. Noone votes for us because we're Germany.
We got often enough shown, that were able to get 0 Points. How many 0s did Russia get in the last 16 Years from
their Neighbours. I can tell you, its 0 Times.

Its almost impossible to miss the Top10, when you start with 100-120 automatic Televotes in Advance, so thats
hardly an Argument. Especially 2014 it was ridiculous where Russia was 6th despite 16 0s out of 34 Countries.
You know exactly when a central European Country gets 0 Points from half of the Countries, it means a Place outside the Top15
usually.
 

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Yes, its ok to sometimes vote for a Neighbour when they send a popular act, but when Armenia
for Example gives 13 Years in a Row only 10s and 12 to Russia, then theres something corrupt.
Or are the 2009, 2011 and 2014 Acts from Russia also huge Stars which justifies them to give them
their 12 Points? And Btw. even 2018 Russia came 11th with a Song with which Switzerland or Austria
would get around 0 Points. Btw. if Kazakhstan participated, Russia would most likely be in the Top 10.
Also they were a bit unlucky that the wrong Countries were in the same Semi.

I agree that Russia sends better Songs then we in general, but that doesnt justify these automatic Points.

These Points from 2016 and 2017 to Germany where totally fair and not automatic. Noone votes for us because we're Germany.
We got often enough shown, that were able to get 0 Points. How many 0s did Russia get in the last 16 Years from
their Neighbours. I can tell you, its 0 Times.

Its almost impossible to miss the Top10, when you start with 100-120 automatic Televotes in Advance, so thats
hardly an Argument. Especially 2014 it was ridiculous where Russia was 6th despite 16 0s out of 34 Countries.
You know exactly when a central European Country gets 0 Points from half of the Countries, it means a Place outside the Top15
usually.

I actually agree with you on this post. I don't say that all points are justified but most of them are understandable.
Germany's points back in 2016 and 2017 were caused by being Germany and Jamie-Lee being popular on German TV, for sure (that's where I completely disagree with you). Same applies for that tragic performance from the No Angels. We profited from German fans in Switzerland as well as Bulgarians being fully patriotic and voting for a Bulgarian woman who happens to be part of the show whilst being popular in the country as well.

Like I said, it's the same effect but the former Soviet--> Russia one is way bigger and more effective
But we also have it in a "minor" version in German-speaking countries as well as its neighbours and :ie:, :mt:, :au: --> :uk:

It is clearly the case that Russia profits from former Soviet countries' votes but it's due to many factors which can't be simply described as unfair and thus, it's also not justified to prevent Kazakhstan to finally debut based on only this "argument".
That's all I wanted to say.
 

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I actually agree with you on this post. I don't say that all points are justified but most of them are understandable.
Germany's points back in 2016 and 2017 were caused by being Germany and Jamie-Lee being popular on German TV, for sure (that's where I completely disagree with you). Same applies for that tragic performance from the No Angels. We profited from German fans in Switzerland as well as Bulgarians being fully patriotic and voting for a Bulgarian woman who happens to be part of the show whilst being popular in the country as well.

Like I said, it's the same effect but the former Soviet--> Russia one is way bigger and more effective
But we also have it in a "minor" version in German-speaking countries as well as its neighbours and :ie:, :mt:, :au: --> :uk:

It is clearly the case that Russia profits from former Soviet countries' votes but it's due to many factors which can't be simply described as unfair and thus, it's also not justified to prevent Kazakhstan to finally debut based on only this "argument".
That's all I wanted to say.

I agree with Realest that the issue with :ru: is that this happens almost every year (as it does with :gr: and :cy: where it happens EVERY year btw). However I agree with you that this is a ridiculous reason to exclude :kz: . I am not 100% sure to which extent I consider :kz: European, but it is definitely more European than :au: is. So come on and let :kz: debut if it so wishes. It's not like we're gonna have ESC semis with 20 participants each in the current situation anyway.
 

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Very interesting discussion between you guys!! I just get some more popcorn from the kitchen!! xpopcorn

If you miss something of the discussion - don't worry. It's coming back with the same arguments over and over again - with the regularity of the sun rising in the morning. :mrgreen:

I was about to write: "wait for the how european is Kazakhstan part, but it's already there. Normally it's A-Lister who takes aver this part. :lol:
 

Sammy

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That's just an assumption. It might be likely. It might happen but it's not our right to neglect an independent country which has parts in Europe and takes part in JESC its right to compete in Eurovision (I know other factors might play a role but that's the first "point" I get from Eurovision fans when they say that they don't want Kazakhstan in Eurovision).

that's why I said: I suspect.

"we" are not the ones who decide on this, so "we" are not neglecting anybody.

there is no such thing as "a right to participate in the ESC". On the bases of what international law or convention would you deduce such a right?
It's the decision of a union of TV-channels to invite or not to invite non-members to the contest. It's like you would claim the right to be invited to a birthday party of a club you're not a member of just because you live in the neighborhood or just because there are other non-members who get invited.

Now, before you get mad at me - I wisely do not declare myself in the question of wether or not Kazakhstan should be a part of it, I just point out an inconsistency in the argument.

But we can leave it here, if you are ok with it.
 

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Actually there's nothing really to disagree with you about what you wrote since it's kinda logical.

I just want to clarify a few things: I used "we" as we = Eurovision family, fans.
right = we are not morally, legally in the position (we as Eurovision) to ask a country X to not compete because of ("they are Eastern European/Asian", "they will be voting for Russia").

Of course, it's correct that the EBU is the one to decide on this issue, not us fans, but I also think that it's somehow unfair that Australia gets invited, other non European countries are allowed to take part and that the EBU area got expanded because the EBU wanted to include the Caucasus... Thus, why is it allowed to do all these exceptions in cases A, B, C.. but not when it comes to Kazakhstan? - It just got very nasty (in my opinion) when Kazakhstan were allowed to take part in Junior Eurovision but the EBU still prevents them from taking part... it's simply either stupid bureaucracy or pure racism, in my opinion.
Before letting Australia compete and Kazakhstan invited to JESC, the "it's not part of the EBU area" argument was understandable but now it really makes me feel uncomfortable.
Due to Australia being demographically "basically European" and so passionate about Eurovision, I can totally live with them as an exception but not inviting Kazakhstan despite being partly European (geographically and demographically), being part of Junior Eurovision and being passionate about Eurovision (they have sent delegations to observe the contest for years now) seems so bitter to me.
 

Gabe

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My contribution to this is simple.

LET. THEM. IN.
 

DenizESC

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If being majorly white and having culture and language close to Anglo-Saxons qualifies Australia of being European or inside of Euro-zone despite being an established country in Oceania (not Europe) since 1901 and being inside of Europe doesn't qualify Kazakhstan of being European lol than sis bye.

Either racism, discrimination or at least high prejudice against Eastern Europeans and Eurasians is confirmed basically with this. And this just doesn't help the indifference, lack of interest I'm feeling lately, that had already been building up for me for this contest named Eurovision. Which once was so important to me and basically defined the May's of my childhood and teen life. It just doesn't look cute EBU. Eurovision is so boring lately, just let them in already or gtfo and be transparent with ur racism so we can move on.
 

Alaska49

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i mean they almost let them WIN jesc today lmao just let them fucking in!!!! what a fucking farce
 

Ana Raquel

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the "not having similar culture" argument is so racist. and i mean shouldn't the contest embrace the differences!!!!! or does that apply only if you are western white


If being majorly white and having culture and language close to Anglo-Saxons qualifies Australia of being European or inside of Euro-zone despite being an established country in Oceania (not Europe) since 1901 and being inside of Europe doesn't qualify Kazakhstan of being European lol than sis bye.

Either racism, discrimination or at least high prejudice against Eastern Europeans and Eurasians is confirmed basically with this. And this just doesn't help the indifference, lack of interest I'm feeling lately, that had already been building up for me for this contest named Eurovision. Which once was so important to me and basically defined the May's of my childhood and teen life. It just doesn't look cute EBU. Eurovision is so boring lately, just let them in already or gtfo and be transparent with ur racism so we can move on.

i love you and you know this!!!!!!!!
 
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