Contact us

Is Next Year The Right Time To Retire the Top 10 Scoring System? (WARNING LONG POST!)

macmillanandwife

Active member
Joined
June 7, 2012
Posts
181
How was the system in 1962?

Edit: OK, I've seen on wikia now.

Yeah a lot of countries would have withdrawn if that happened. Although I don't know which system was worse, the top 3,2,1 system from 1962 or the "domino system" from 1963-1966 that did not use numbers?
 

Chorizo

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2014
Posts
4,251
The current system with its douze points is a long standing tradition, so I wouldn't easily discard it, but I think the lowest points could be awarded to multiple countries in order to hand out points to a larger number of countries. For example, 1 point could be awarded to five countries, 2 points could be awarded to four countries, 3 points to three countries and 4 points to two countries. The rest would stay the same. This would mean that each country would give points to twenty countries instead of giving points to only ten countries. They could give each spokesperson a few seconds more in order to display all the countries on screen but otherwise the voting would proceed as usual. I think this would be fairer because it would help reduce the impact of both block and diaspora voting and the impact of diverging preferences between the jury and audience on the result.
 

niko

Banned
Joined
March 23, 2015
Posts
403
Location
Brno, Czech Republic
The number of points is fine, nothing has to change there. However the voting system is a huge mess and we need to get back to the top 10 of the juries. Actually, we need to get rid of the juries in general and let the people speak.
 

MyHeartIsYours

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2010
Posts
24,546
The number of points is fine, nothing has to change there. However the voting system is a huge mess and we need to get back to the top 10 of the juries. Actually, we need to get rid of the juries in general and let the people speak.
We can't have that again, don't you remember 2007 last time it was all televote, not a single Western European country got through to the final. As 50/50 is not working either and has swung it too far the other way, it seems to be me that the automatic sensible thing to do would be to go mid-way and have it 75/25.
 

niko

Banned
Joined
March 23, 2015
Posts
403
Location
Brno, Czech Republic
We can't have that again, don't you remember 2007 last time it was all televote, not a single Western European country got through to the final. As 50/50 is not working either and has swung it too far the other way, it seems to be me that the automatic sensible thing to do would be to go mid-way and have it 75/25.

The reason why not a single Western country got through the final in 2007 is that all the Western countries sent songs that are huge pieces of shit. Excuse me, but Latvia deserved 100 times more to be in the final than Belgium or Denmark...
 

MyHeartIsYours

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2010
Posts
24,546
The reason why not a single Western country got through the final in 2007 is that all the Western countries sent songs that are huge pieces of shit. Excuse me, but Latvia deserved 100 times more to be in the final than Belgium or Denmark...
Okay, Latvia or the Hungarian woman dressed like she's going out shopping definitely deserved to be in that final more than Andorra... :rolleyes:
 

niko

Banned
Joined
March 23, 2015
Posts
403
Location
Brno, Czech Republic
Hungary had a great performance in 2007! Also Belarus, Moldova, Slovenia, Bulgaria, Georgia and Serbia were epic in that year!

Compared to Moldova, the Netherlands looked like bunch of drunk amateurs and Denmark was kitschy as fuck...
 

MyHeartIsYours

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2010
Posts
24,546
Hungary was dull as dishwater. I hated Serbia too but that wasn't the problem. It was the fact that all the Western countries were hammered in the voting, while Eastern countries sailed by with mediocre or even poor songs. Look at Germany, Andorra, Switzerland and Ireland for instance. Fab songs. All crushed.
 

niko

Banned
Joined
March 23, 2015
Posts
403
Location
Brno, Czech Republic
Hungary was dull as dishwater. I hated Serbia too but that wasn't the problem. It was the fact that all the Western countries were hammered in the voting, while Eastern countries sailed by with mediocre or even poor songs. Look at Germany, Andorra, Switzerland and Ireland for instance. Fab songs. All crushed.

What was so great about Switzerland, Andorra or Ireland back in 2007?
Sorry, but compared to the opera singer from Slovenia, Andorra looked like a bad garage band. The woman from Ireland could sing at least 1 note in tune. And Switzerland was just old-fashioned. In that year (2007), Eastern European countries just had better songs, better singers and better performances. That's all. However, I also agree that Serbia didn't deserve to win in that year, because I think that Ukraine had the most iconic performance in 2007.
Maybe the only bad song that qualified from 2007 was the one from Turkey. Actually, that was the only song from Eastern Europe that I personally disliked, because I am not a fan of singers like Kenan.
 

Stiven

Active member
Joined
June 6, 2013
Posts
510
Location
Skopje
Sorry but going to 100% televote is a horrible idea it nearly destroyed the contest when it was implemented. I would rather have a 100% jury than televote because at least with the jury the contest did have some prestige which was completely lost with the televote (also ironically I have noticed that the general public agrees with the juries more than the televote at least for Macedonia).
Like it or not both systems are broken and they need each to neutralise their flaws so a 50/50 is necessary or the contest will revert to the atrocious kitsch years of 2004-2008 when it lost it entire credibility and still hasn't fully recovered from them (I'm strictly speaking for the Macedonian general public).
For juries I would suggest increasing their size to 10 and better screening of potential jurors.
For televoting introducing app voting would be a good idea, possibly introducing a algorithm to combat diaspora/minority voting and again screening to avoid any potential harm.
As for the amount of points I would add the 9 and 11 points to get a top 12 in order to avoid point cancellation.
 
Last edited:

MyHeartIsYours

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2010
Posts
24,546
What was so great about Switzerland, Andorra or Ireland back in 2007?
Sorry, but compared to the opera singer from Slovenia, Andorra looked like a bad garage band. The woman from Ireland could sing at least 1 note in tune. And Switzerland was just old-fashioned. In that year (2007), Eastern European countries just had better songs, better singers and better performances. That's all. However, I also agree that Serbia didn't deserve to win in that year, because I think that Ukraine had the most iconic performance in 2007.
Maybe the only bad song that qualified from 2007 was the one from Turkey. Actually, that was the only song from Eastern Europe that I personally disliked, because I am not a fan of singers like Kenan.
Switzerland - great Europop track. Andorra - well do I really need to say that this was a great song that was totally robbed? Ireland - lovely traditional music, and she didn't sing any worse than that one from Bulgaria.

Yes there were great Eastern songs too - Belarus, Slovenia, Greece, Turkey, Russia - but they weren't all great, in the same way all Western songs weren't all bad. Switzerland, Andorra, Ireland, Malta, Germany and Spain were all robbed in the voting. I thought France and the United Kingdom had awesome songs too, but okay I can understand they weren't to everyone's taste, but if you think Ukraine should have won... well ;)
 

DanielLuis

Well-known member
Joined
March 14, 2011
Posts
8,603
Sorry but going to 100% televote is a horrible idea it nearly destroyed the contest when it was implemented. I would rather have a 100% jury than televote because at least with the jury the contest did have some prestige which was completely lost with the televote (also ironically I have noticed that the general public agrees with the juries more than the televote at least for Macedonia).
Like it or not both systems are broken and they need each to neutralise their flaws so a 50/50 is necessary or the contest will revert to the atrocious kitsch years of 2004-2008 when it lost it entire credibility and still hasn't fully recovered from them (I'm strictly speaking for the Macedonian general public).
For juries I would suggest increasing their size to 10 and better screening of potential jurors.
For televoting introducing app voting would be a good idea, possibly introducing a algorithm to combat diaspora/minority voting and again screening to avoid any potential harm.
As for the amount of points I would add the 9 and 11 points to get a top 12 in order to avoid point cancellation.

Absolutely agree. People that suggest we should go back to 100% televoting really have short memory. I mean back then everyone was imploring to get the juries back :lol:
And I agree, those kitsch 2004-2008 years really ruined the reputation of Eurovision, but ever since the jury was reintroduced it has been slowly rebuilding.
 

ElRuso

Member
Joined
May 21, 2015
Posts
567
Juries killed so many good songs in 90s and now continue this trend.

I think the best will be current system in the semi-finals only to prevent the diaspora voting, and 100% televoting in the final.
 

RomanFromRussia

Well-known member
Joined
April 24, 2011
Posts
6,993
Location
haus of esk flops
Oh guys, look at the scoreboards, in 2012 juries voted for "The Joker" and placed it 8th in semifinal, in 2013 they make "Lonely planet" reach the final, in 2012 they made Suzy from Portugal flop (I believe her song could become a summer hit, but...) in 2015 they made Czech Republic with perfect performance flop, and also they eliminated ~70 points from Italy, well even 10th place didn't reach this number.

And for those who thinks that contest will became more kitsch. Please, tell me the place that was reached by Dustin the Turkey?

Juries don't even try to eliminate diaspora or voting for kitsch, they just trying to make some songs flop. So I don't think we should eliminate juries at all, I think there should be less role of juries. Or Contest's ratings will come to 0 because it will be back to 90's with bland ballads.
 

macmillanandwife

Active member
Joined
June 7, 2012
Posts
181
Wow, I'm surprised this kept going for so long! Well In terms of the kitsch years I think the lowest point was between Bosnia & Herzegovina's 2004 entry and Dustin the Turkey. Yes 2004-2007 had the worst block voting in the history of the contest. 2007 was the only year I've seen where I liked the Semi-Final much better than the actual final. Yes a lot of western countries that year did send a lot of crap, but I believe Iceland, Andorra, Portugal, and Norway should have qualified. However, nobody is stating the fact there were too many countries that year to fit in one semi final. 28 semi-finalists competing for 10 slots way was too much to handle and Eastern European countries used block-voting to the highest degree. On the final, I was really annoyed that only placed 17th as I thought it was a very solid rock song and was one of my top 5 entries. Even when they introduced televoting 1999, people were annoyed of the voting.

As with the juries, I do feel that they did balance things out, but I do agree that their Jury selection is downright terrible. As I have said before, 5 jury members is too few as well as averaging their rankings to determine their final rank. They need to expand the juries to a minimum of 10 to 15 and ditch rank averaging on their end. Also, if a country is using only a jury, like San Marino, then they are required to have a minimum of 20 people and include regular people. A good portion of those jury members barely qualified as "Music Professionals" so it's obvious that they need to change the composition of the juries as well.

I do agree that the juries have messed up songs that should have qualified like Portugal 2014 and Czech Republic 2015 or getting more points, but televoting has done the same as well. My main concern is this current system of ranking each entry is heavily flawed and needs to be reformed in some form. It's that if you have a contest is going to use a ranking system to determine point allocation from more than one determining body, then it should be expanded so that point cancelling should not occur.
 

Romeo

Well-known member
Joined
November 27, 2013
Posts
7,319
Location
Il-Bidu
I've just been thinking about the voting system and how its unfair that if every jury member plus every country puts a song in 11th place, that song would come last with 0 points.

the only way around this is to have every country getting a point 1 point for last 27points for 1st (id there are 27 countries performing. but that would just be stupid

so I say the current system, although flawed, is the best option
 

Nikkita

Active member
Joined
October 2, 2012
Posts
1,212
Location
Izmir,Turkey
What was bad for the "kitsch" years? Ofcourse we had so many block voting, but beautiful songs were always rewarded like Serbia & Montenegro 2004, Bosnia & Herzegovina 2006 or Serbia 2007... We also had lots of fun with joke entries and experimental songs, which are missing now because of the weird taste of countries' juries. The jury's effect has to be something middle-effective like %30 or else we will be watching Swedevision or Balladvision, which are both worse than Kitschvision of 2004 - 2008.
 

John1

Well-known member
Joined
November 1, 2015
Posts
7,051
Location
Brittany
That's such a bad idea to replace the top 10 system by a top 25 one, some countries whom people voted for could get a lower place than their favourite ones.
 
Top Bottom