Contact us

Is Next Year The Right Time To Retire the Top 10 Scoring System? (WARNING LONG POST!)

popavapeur

Well-known member
Joined
February 19, 2015
Posts
1,829
Location
Paris (France)
i was skeptical at the beginning but you convinced me. I have to say that there's still too much points anyway so i would keep the 1-12points but add two to three countries per points
Example : if somebody's top 15 is the same as the actual top 15 of this esc year it will be
12points - Sweden
10points - Russia
8points - Italy
7points - Belgium
6points - Australia
5points - Latvia and Estonia
4points - Norway and Israël
3points - Serbia and Georgia
2points - Azerbaijan, Montenegro and Slovenia
1point - Romania, Armenia and Albania

I don't know if it'll help some countries and avoid the 0 points, i don't have much time to check that now or what it will look like but i will when i'll have free time :)
(maybe it won't change at all, i'm not really good at maths :D)
 

Romeo

Well-known member
Joined
November 27, 2013
Posts
7,332
Location
Il-Bidu
 

macmillanandwife

Active member
Joined
June 7, 2012
Posts
181
The current (12, 10, 8-1 points) system was put into use when there were only around 20 participants. I do think it's a better idea if lets say top 15 songs got points, but I'm not sure how that would be implemented in the best way xthink

I also like your idea of every rank counting here, but final results show would be very complicated though xthink In addition, if the juries were abolished, 100% televoting + every rank counting would help the songs that are liked everywhere instead of the songs that only do well because of diaspora winning the televote in 10ish countries (when other 30 rank them near last)

Thanks, at least someone gets it. The main reason I created this system was because I believed that there were songs that were more liked by more countries than what the points reflect. :es: :cy: and :de: did terribly in the current system but when ranking they were actually pretty close to scoring actual points by one or two ranking, while countries that did much better due to diaspora voting actually did worse overall in Europe like :am: :az: and :al: and the :uk: would have been last. Besides, they only announce the top 3 points anyway so it would and throw the other points onto the scoreboard so it would not be that much different just with more numbers.

While I do agree that having the top 15 being shown, there is still a chance that a country might fall through the cracks due to not being high enough and be thrown on the wayside, as seen with :de: this year.
 

dizzydjc

Well-known member
Joined
December 28, 2009
Posts
543
Location
A, A
I actually think this is a great idea personally, the douze points (despite being great) is an old fashioned idea.

Could you imagine...

"Hello London, can you tell us your votes please...?"

"The first 20 are shown on your screen and the rest are..."

"...and the 25 points goes to ... "

Yes it's a lot of numbers, but it works partly in Melodifestivalen so why not Eurovision?
 

macmillanandwife

Active member
Joined
June 7, 2012
Posts
181
I actually think this is a great idea personally, the douze points (despite being great) is an old fashioned idea.

Could you imagine...

"Hello London, can you tell us your votes please...?"

"The first 20 are shown on your screen and the rest are..."

"...and the 25 points goes to ... "

Yes it's a lot of numbers, but it works partly in Melodifestivalen so why not Eurovision?

It would be interesting instead it would be like this:
Host: "Hello London, can you tell us your votes please?"
Announcer: "Good Evening [Swedish City], London's calling and here are the first 22 on the screen. Here are the top 3...
" 24 points go to...
" 28 points go to...
" and our 32 points go to...::so SOMALIA...wait what?"

Also if SVT can theoretically throw 473 points to a single song (which is highly improbable but possible) they can handle 32 points...
 

randomlinkz

Member
Joined
February 8, 2015
Posts
156
i think that if we are doing top 15 gets points, it might be worth following a point system that is known and works such as the moto gp system where it is Positio
1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 11th 12th 13th 14th 15th
25 20 16 13 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
This works well and the top 3 still have the oomph that 12 pointa has in my opinion. this would be a valid working system in my opinion
 

ElRuso

Member
Joined
May 21, 2015
Posts
567
I actually think this is a great idea personally, the douze points (despite being great) is an old fashioned idea.

Could you imagine...

"Hello London, can you tell us your votes please...?"

"The first 20 are shown on your screen and the rest are..."

"...and the 25 points goes to ... "

Yes it's a lot of numbers, but it works partly in Melodifestivalen so why not Eurovision?

Cause Eurovision is not Melodifestivalen.
 

hdplus

Member
Joined
February 23, 2015
Posts
284
12points - Sweden
10points - Russia
8points - Italy
7points - Belgium
6points - Australia
5points - Latvia and Estonia
4points - Norway and Israël
3points - Serbia and Georgia
2points - Azerbaijan, Montenegro and Slovenia
1point - Romania, Armenia and Albania
I actually like this idea. It would keep the 12 points and the points records wouldn't be much easier to break. And you can still show the first points on the screen, so it wouldn't even take more time.
 

MyHeartIsYours

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2010
Posts
24,546
The ranking idea is an interesting one (though I don't see why it should only be 25 in this instance, shouldn't it be 27?). However I worry it would become too confusing on screen - people who aren't Euroloons won't have the patience to be trying to follow who's getting what point when there's like 40 sets of 27 points. And drunk people... how will they get it? :lol:

We have to remember that at the end of the day Eurovision is an entertainment show. Not an election. It's for fun and therefore while it does have flaws, you cant be ridiculous in trying to solve them.

One small change I think would be good though is to add 9 and 11 points - that way an extra two countries be able to get points each time. It seems a little unfair that if a country got say 10,000 votes and placed 11th it gets zero, but another might get 10,001 votes and so get's a point.
 

VikingTiger

Well-known member
Joined
February 24, 2010
Posts
3,363
Location
Oslo, Norway
I see no problem with using the 1-12 system. It is widely known. The "Douze points" is famous, not only amongst fans. I do NOT want to abolish that!

And neither do I see a problem with an entry (or two) scoring a big fat 0. The important thing is the winner - and the runner ups. Whether an entry places 12th or 21st really doesnt matter much to me.

The only change that I strongly urge is that the juries are made up of at least 10 people in each country.
 

lowyby

Active member
Joined
May 17, 2011
Posts
1,727
Only solution to this problem is lowering the final countries again to a ultimate maximum of 25.
Everything went splendid from 2000 - 2013 but the voting in 2014 and 2015 was too centralized to the top 3 IMO
 

EscGeek

Veteran
Joined
December 12, 2011
Posts
12,070
Location
Milky Way
imagine this year's scoreboard with the 1962 sistem:lol:

here it is...i couldn't stop thinking about it :lol:

:se: 65
:ru: 44
:it: 39
:au: 17
:be: 15
:lv: 12
:az: 7
:me: 6
:rs: 5
:al: 5
:no: 4
:ge: 4
:ee: 3
:am: 3
:gr: 3
:ro: 3
:cy: 2
:sl: 1
:il: 1
:hu: 1
:fr: 0
:uk: 0
:lt: 0
:at: 0
:de: 0
:pl: 0
:es: 0
 

macmillanandwife

Active member
Joined
June 7, 2012
Posts
181
The ranking idea is an interesting one (though I don't see why it should only be 25 in this instance, shouldn't it be 27?). However I worry it would become too confusing on screen - people who aren't Euroloons won't have the patience to be trying to follow who's getting what point when there's like 40 sets of 27 points. And drunk people... how will they get it? :lol:

We have to remember that at the end of the day Eurovision is an entertainment show. Not an election. It's for fun and therefore while it does have flaws, you cant be ridiculous in trying to solve them.

One small change I think would be good though is to add 9 and 11 points - that way an extra two countries be able to get points each time. It seems a little unfair that if a country got say 10,000 votes and placed 11th it gets zero, but another might get 10,001 votes and so get's a point.

Well the main reason I chose 25 was because there are (usually) 26 countries in the final. They cannot vote for themselves so there are 25 total votes available for those in the final and 26 votes for those not in the final, so they can choose who gets 0 points. Therefore, the least amount of points a county could get is 26 points. However, it is very unlikely for every single country to vote an entry last, but still possible.

Also, how the voting is conducted these days by throwing the first 7 votes on the scoreboard and only declaring the top 3 can be modified as the organizers already have the votes counted. Instead of highlighting the countries who got votes, they could only highlight the top 3. Drunk people can at least tell that the top-right corner is good and the bottom-left corner is bad. Unless, they're so plastered that they're sprawled across the stage. Then, there's no hope for that person.
 

macmillanandwife

Active member
Joined
June 7, 2012
Posts
181
I actually like this idea. It would keep the 12 points and the points records wouldn't be much easier to break. And you can still show the first points on the screen, so it wouldn't even take more time.

The problem with this system would be it increases the chances of a tie.
 

Hele.

Well-known member
Joined
April 3, 2011
Posts
11,374
I have read your post and I mostly agree with you and that scoring system is not fair. I think it is mostly not fair because televoters can vote some country at top of the rankings and jury put it last and it doesn't get any points. I like your point of view and this seems to be interesting.
Honestly, I'm not sure if we would stick to top 25 or top 20 or top 15. Or find another solution to top 10. I believe that jury only should have corrective role and not so much significant as they have it now. I think 75-25 on side of public would be fair enough. But yup, esc is involving and maybe it should find system with more countries getting points. What I know, current system doesn't not work fair enough! Italy lost it's win because of the system after all...
 

MyHeartIsYours

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2010
Posts
24,546
Perhaps another solution could be:
- Each country awards three 12 points.
- Two 11 points.
- One 1-10 points.

That way each country would be giving its top 15 points instead of just 10, and we could also keep the "douze points" as the maximum points.


Or you could do it the other way around:
- One 12 points.
- Two 10 points.
- Three 1-8 points.

There would have to be at least 27 finalists for this though. But I think I like this best, and it would be a good excuse to have 30 in the final ;)
 

lowyby

Active member
Joined
May 17, 2011
Posts
1,727
One 12, 10, 8, 7 & 6 so that the top countries get still their deserved most points
Two 5, 4, three 3s, Four 2s and 1s, that makes a total of 20 countries getting points
 

macmillanandwife

Active member
Joined
June 7, 2012
Posts
181
about your new voting system I don't know if it's good to give 25 countries points. Maybe an extension to 12 or 15 is possible.

I do agree about is the fact that the number of jury members must be extended.
Five people can really destroy the televoting results of a country.

An example: In the grand final in 2014 Belgian televoters put Armenia in the first place (ok diaspora is certainly in) but the juries only put it 25th, so it became 11th in the overall ranking. In a jury system with 10 or even 20 members well divided (young,old,men,woman,professional, fan,...) then you would get a more accurate image of what a jury thinks...[/QUOTE]

I thought about reworking the new system and by people's comments, giving points to every country would be confusing. In terms with all the problems during the voting, it's safe to assume a computer blue screened when it tried to connect to Estonia, Portugal, and Georgia. :lol:

So I decided to reduce it from giving every country a point value to the top 15:

AXeTAvr.jpg


So I did the analysis and gave points based on the ranking system. Here are the results:

Semi-Final 1:
Current System
01. :ru: 182
02. :be: 149
03. :ee: 105
04. :ge: 98
05. :ro: 89
06. :gr: 81
07. :am: 77
08. :hu: 67
09. :rs: 63
10. :al: 62
11. :md: 41
12. :by: 39
13. :dk: 33
14. :nl: 33
15. :mk: 28
16. :fi: 13

New System
01. :ru: 292
02. :be: 253
03. :ee: 207
04. :ge: 196
05. :ro: 189
06. :gr: 178
07. :rs: 167
08. :am: 154
09. :al: 140
10. :hu: 136
11. :nl: 118
12. :md: 117
13. :dk: 115
14. :by: 107
15. :fi: 79
16. :mk: 72

Biggest Gains: :nl: +4 Ranks and :rs: +2 Ranks, Biggest Loss :by: & :hu: -2 Ranks. Although Netherlands still did not qualify, it did rank much better under the new system than the old.

Semi-Final 2:
Current System
01. :se: 217
02. :lv: 155
03. :il: 151
04. :no: 123
05. :sl: 92
06. :cy: 87
07. :lt: 67
08. :pl: 57
09. :me: 57
10. :az: 53
11. :mt: 43
12. :ie: 35
13. :cz: 33
14. :pt: 19
15. :is: 14
16. :sm: 11
17. :ch: 4

New System
01. :se: 335
02. :lv: 265
03. :il: 263
04. :no: 225
05. :sl: 195
06. :cy: 178
07. :lt: 165
08. :pl: 148
09. :me: 137
10. :az: 127
11. :cz: 124
12. :mt: 122
13. :ie: 120
14. :is: 73
15. :pt: 72
16. :ch: 64
17. :sm: 34

While there is not much difference between the rankings between the current and new systems, :cz: would have been placed 11th instead of 13th and would have missed qualification by just 4 points. Also, :ch: was ranked much better than scored, and :sm: got REALLY lucky with :me: and :it: voting for them and inching just above Switzerland.

Grand Final
Current System
01. :se: 365
02. :ru: 303
03. :it: 292
04. :be: 217
05. :au: 196
06. :lv: 186
07. :ee: 106
08. :no: 102
09. :il: 97
10. :rs: 53
11. :ge: 51
12. :az: 49
13. :me: 44
14. :sl: 39
15. :ro: 35
16. :am: 34
17. :al: 34
18. :lt: 30
19. :gr: 23
20. :hu: 19
21. :es: 15
22. :cy: 11
23. :pl: 10
24. :uk: 5
25. :fr: 4
26. :at: 0
27. :de: 0

New System
01. :se: 590
02. :ru: 516
03. :it: 506
04. :be: 414
05. :au: 391
06. :lv: 374
07. :ee: 270
08. :il: 252
09. :no: 239
10. :ge: 159
11. :rs: 140
12. :sl: 119
13. :es: 112
14. :az: 109
15. :ro: 104
16. :me: 97
17. :am: 87
18. :cy: 84
19. :al: 77
20. :hu: 75
21. :lt: 73
22. :gr: 59
23. :pl: 52
24. :de: 47
25. :uk: 31
26. :fr: 28
27. :at: 27

Unfortunately, :at: would still be last under the new system as they did have one of the lower averages between them and :de:. Countries did think better of :de: song because it would gain 3 ranks from 27th to 24th. However, the biggest victim of point canceling is :es: as under the new system, they would have gain 8 rankings from 21st to 13th! :cy: would have done surprisingly better as he would have went up 4 ranks from 22nd to 18th.

In conclusion, this year was still really lopsided as the top 5 did get 67% of the total points available under the current system. However, if the EBU decides to overhaul the scoring system, even expanding from the top 10 to the top 15 would better reflect the average rankings and avoid point cancellations between the televoters and the jury when it comes to songs borderlined between receiving and not receiving points.

On another note, I do agree with everyone on the jury system and that it should be expanded to at least 10 to 20 people of both "music professionals" AND Eurovision fans. With the 5 person jury, if even one person ranks a song low, the whole jury ranking is thrown off and may deny an entry points because ONE person didn't like it...or possibly hates the country or singer. Who knows?

Thanks for reading all this!
 

MyHeartIsYours

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2010
Posts
24,546
I think the main priority should be shifting the voting to 75% televote / 25% jury vote, as that will actually make a real difference. Altering the points distribution should be looked at too, but the 12-1 point system isn't broken so it's not too important.
 
Top Bottom