GermanBango
Well-known member
I actually never read the "You are not allowed to vote for your neighbors or your native country"-rule
Is it time to remove Juries?
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I actually never read the "You are not allowed to vote for your neighbors or your native country"-rule
GianlucaTomoe
Banned
I actually never read the "You are not allowed to vote for your neighbors or your native country"-rule
"You can't vote for your own country" is an ESC-rule since the very beginning of the contest, and yet the diasporas keep violating it.
RomanFromRussia
Well-known member
From this post I've got two things:
1. People from diasporas haven't taste in music and vote only for countries they were born or have origin.
2. People from diasporas shouldn't have a right to vote for a song they like.
Sorry, but anyone should be equal.
CaraMia
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Definition of diaspora: "a group of people who live outside the area in which they had lived for a long time or in which their ancestors lived" (Merriem-Webster dictionary). Therefore, if they live outside the area they vote for, no rules are being broken.
Tbh I always understood that sentence as: "If you're an Italian living in Italy, you can't vote for Italy because it won't be counted".
That doesn't apply to diaspora as any other country is entitled to vote for Italy.
GianlucaTomoe
Banned
Well, if ESC wants to gain more credibility, the basic principle of not voting for the own country should be applied to the diasporas as well.
blue00eyes
Well-known member
It's impossible to ban diasporas from voting for their own countries. It's a part of ESC.
GianlucaTomoe
Banned
Then don't complain about the juries.
blue00eyes
Well-known member
I will. Jury is as political as televote but they shouldn't be.
GianlucaTomoe
Banned
Neither should be televoting, which should just be an instrument for common people to vote for their favourite songs, no matter where they come from. The pathetic excuses from the diasporas like "There's nothing wrong with supporting my country", "It's not our fault that people don't bother to vote" and so on are pathetic BS.
blue00eyes
Well-known member
The biggest difference is diasporas never decide the winner. Of course they can lift up let's say Serbia from 22nd to 16th place but who really cares? No one because it's very random what happens outside top 10.
And how would you explain the way Balkan jury vote? They have Balkan countries higher in their rankings than any jury from other parts of Europe...
Dutchball
Active member
Well we've seen the impact televoting had on Poland, I don't think their high score was just because of the song... now Poland only needs half a good song to impress juries enough to crack top 3 at least.
JamieBrown
Well-known member
I'm surprised that people mention Poland as an bad example for diaspora voting. Where was their diaspora in all the other years?
Dutchball
Active member
Mostly cancelled by juries in the 50/50 system. Let's compare jury and televoting:
2016 final: 25th Jury, 3rd televote.
2016 semi: 4th televote, 15th jury.
2015 semi: 4th televote, 16th jury
2015 final: 15th televote, 27th jury. Not that high but still notably higher than with juries.
2014 semi: 3rd televoting, 12th jury
2014 final: 5th televote, 23rd jury. That's almost 20 places. Obviously the boobs helped in the televoting but I don't think that's responsible for the 5th place.
(Gap)
2011 semi 17th televote 18th jury. Still baffles me as it was a great song
Obviously there's other examples but Poland was just the most prominent with the 22-place-gap
Johnn
Member
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There's a point tbh that you barely see anybody who likes Poland's song this year. The televote placing would place it as pretty universally liked across the ESC-fandom, moreso than France and Bulgaria, but it genuinely doesn't feel that way. I'm sure diaspora had a lot of that impact.
blue00eyes
Well-known member
This proves they don't judge performances but countries and they had the power to cancel points (even 12's from the audience, it was stupid) in the previous system.
In the televoting you can't vote "negatively", you vote for songs you like; you can't downvote the entries you hate.
JamieBrown
Well-known member
I'd rather talk about the years between 2004 and 2014. For countries like Poland you cannot blame only the diaspora for their good televoting results. It surely helps, but it's not the main reason. And even if you cannot find many fans of it in the internet, it doesn't say anything. Not everyone who votes in Eurovision is active in these forums and so on. They are rather dominated by the youth, but many elder people vote as well.
And even the big countries like Greece, Azerbaijan, Turkey or Ukraine cannot only relate to diaspora, as some of their results prove. You can say that it's still unfair they always qualify, or almost at least, but that's not the important thing in Eurovision. The "small" countries can qualify with strong songs anyway. I mentioned them often enough, but for those who forgot just some once again (CZ 2015, CH 2012-2014, BG 2012-2013). And the winner will be the favourite of the majority no matter what country it comes from (DE 2010, AT 2014 In front of the Netherlands in case you forgot)
Once again, of course Russia, Greece, Azerbaijan and co have a big advantage towards others, but to second that, they're doing everything to get the satisfying results in most years, going rather for mainstream stuff.
In the end, every country can get the good results, they do not need the juries. And since the juries, we get more and more songs in english, more and more ballads and more boring heterogenous results in the finals, especially in the televoting section, because three or four qualifiers each year are no televoting qualifiers and cannot stand a chance to sneak into some Top 10's.
And even the big countries like Greece, Azerbaijan, Turkey or Ukraine cannot only relate to diaspora, as some of their results prove. You can say that it's still unfair they always qualify, or almost at least, but that's not the important thing in Eurovision. The "small" countries can qualify with strong songs anyway. I mentioned them often enough, but for those who forgot just some once again (CZ 2015, CH 2012-2014, BG 2012-2013). And the winner will be the favourite of the majority no matter what country it comes from (DE 2010, AT 2014 In front of the Netherlands in case you forgot)
Once again, of course Russia, Greece, Azerbaijan and co have a big advantage towards others, but to second that, they're doing everything to get the satisfying results in most years, going rather for mainstream stuff.
In the end, every country can get the good results, they do not need the juries. And since the juries, we get more and more songs in english, more and more ballads and more boring heterogenous results in the finals, especially in the televoting section, because three or four qualifiers each year are no televoting qualifiers and cannot stand a chance to sneak into some Top 10's.
Alaska49
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well i don't know where you've been because this board is one of the few places where i haven't seen people praising poland and complaining about "jury robbage". the song was immensely popular with anyone except the board-dwelling diehard eurovision fans and like, we as a collective also loved iceland's song which just proves we are terrible at predicting the televote when we use our own opinions as a standard.
also lol @ people seriously arguing about the polish diaspora having any real power. we've had a decade of televote-only contests to see it in action and poland's only noteworthy result was 2003. are you going to tell me that the polish diaspora is a recent phenomenon or something? it just doesn't change the game and poland got good televote results the last three years because they all make sense (hot girls showing cleavage and a catchy song; wheelchair-bound singer with very sad backdrop; a time capsule straight from the early-middle 80s). an eastern european country is consistently able to charm western european viewers - deal with it.
Johnn
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Well I'm usually on escforum.net and this was the results of the most recent round: http://i.imgur.com/kfKIt9v.png. They have barely any fans on the entire forum (really, there's about 1 or 2 that you see on threads like this criticising the jury stuff). People who I'd watched ESC with, aswell as family members, didn't think much to the song aswell - one of my friends thought his voice was the worst of the night, even after Samra. With so few people liking the entry, the only explanation for it's success in the televote is diaspora.
The diaspora simply started up again in 2014 after that performance, meaning they could combat any bad jury result, even though the 2 acts since have been poor vocally and had boring stage shows. 2011 and before, their songs were extremely boring, and Monika could've easily fit as one of those acts as her song and singing were just poor.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if ::bu starts doing well after this year, in the televote in a Polish style, following Poli's success. They have been consistently in the televote top 10, but I reckon if they send a subpar act (like a poor singer in a wheelchair singing a song that goes nowhere), they may even manage to qualify solely through the televote.