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Eligibility of separatist states (Proposal did NOT pass)

Should we allow separatist states into OM?

  • Yes

    5 29.4%
  • No

    12 70.6%

  • Total voters
    17
  • Poll closed .
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Orient Matsuri

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Hello!

This month, we were asked whether Kurdistan is an eligible region for a switch or not. We haven't thought about this before and we have our personal opinions about it. However, I want to hear from you. Not only about Kurdistan, but about separatist states in general.

Should all of them be allowed?
Should some of them be allowed? (And which one of them?)
Should none of them be allowed?

Eligible switches like Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macao, and Palestine were also mentioned, so if you want to state your opinion on whether they should stay eligible or not, please do so!

Much love.
 
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Ana Raquel

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Posting on Deniz's behalf:

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iowacorn

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I think all separatist as well as autonomous regions should be allowed! That includes any region in Russia, China, and of course Kurdistan.
 
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Mainshow

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Since we already got Hong Kong, Taiwan and Palestine being part of the game, it would be strange to not let Iraqi Kurdistan or oppressed colonies like Tartarstan, Bashkortostan, Udmurtia, Mordvinia, Mari El, Chechnia, Dagestan or Tibet participate.

Why should it be only "one" by coloniser? We have already experienced editions in which Hong Kong and Taiwain took place at the same time, bringing it to two "territories of such category".

I'd struggle with the idea to see Georgian provinces like Abkahzia or South Ossetia in the contest or the Crimean peninsula or Luhansk/Donezk, though (all invaded and annexed territories "are part" of the RuZZian Empire/Soviet Union 2.0 which is eligible to take part in OM). What about these regions?

How should we treat Northern Cyprus, Arstakh?

What about South Azerbaijan which shouldn't be part of Iran anyway... can we take any of these 4 Azerbaijani provinces which are currently part of Iran?

Will Tartarstan and Bashkortostan be allowed? Geographically speaking, they are RuZZian colonies on European ground.

Generally speaking, I'm in favor of that idea but it can also open up a can of worms.
 
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Uto

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Pffffffffft. Let's me rephrase that: pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft. Difficult topic.

Ok Deniz makes a good point in general, makes a couple good arguments and a couple weak ones. Generally though it feel as though Deniz is just shooting at the sky in hopes of making something stick. I've tried to work at the problem from a different point of view, the problem is that you run into the issue that Europe is the vantage point and it's difficult to understand what a country even is when you are used to the idea of the nation-state.

So, what is a country? Well, a country is usually defined as some territory or polity that is sovereign. That's about it. You will see talks about nations, states, possible lack of sovereignty etc, but generally all that is just fluff.

We generally understand a country to roughly mean either a nation or a state, or indeed a nation-state. What is a state? It's a political organizational structure that generally has monopoly on violence and monopoly on law. It is tied to a territory and it ties the people living on that territory. What is a nation? Well this is where the magic happens, as a nation is exactly that broader imagined community of people that share this common informational framework we call culture, often encompassing similar language, customs, stories, history.

Now, when we are looking at regions normally we sort of demand for there to be some sort of 'state', like with Palestine and Hong Kong clearly there is a state. They aren't countries, but they are country-like. It's perhaps not totally sovereign, but there's a large degree of autonomy. For both it's pretty obvious they also function as a nation, but this does not seem to be the reason for why they were accepted.

What then is Kurdistan? Kurdistan is NOT a country. It's not even country-like. Kurdistan is a nation, not much more but certainly nothing less. It is a people living on a more or less stable territory, it has this shared culture, it operates quite unified on a cultural level. So why then is it not a state? Well because of the Greeks, the Romans, the Persians, the Arabs, the Ottomans and the French and the British AND the Americans and blahblah people just got dealt a really bad hand. They are literally like the Poland of the Middle East. You want to go from Baghdad to Istanbul or Damascus you have mountains to the northeast, desert to the southwest and Kurdistan in the middle. No one with sway in the region ever trusted a country to just exist in such a strategic location. It's not for lack of trying. We see Kurdish political structures existing within other countries, we see how they try to establish sovereignty, we see how active and vibrant this process is. And as Deniz also points out referenda are very much positive about independence and while there is ample reason to doubt the specific numbers, there is no reason to doubt which way the pendulum goes. The Kurds support this movement. Should we really disallow a nation that is trying to become a state and has tried for so long?

So yeah I'm very much in favor of allowing Kurdistan, I just feel like it's morally unjust to sort of punish the Kurds for what are essentially historical wrongs that the Kurds did not ask for. As long as we aren't going to allow any single region where there's some cry for autonomy I don't see the issue. However, HOWEVER, if we do this....




1024px-Colonial_Africa_1913_map.svg.png



Europe did a bad baaaaad doodoo once. I'm not touching it with a stick. Kurdistan is one apple with a worm in it. There are warehouses full of cans full of worms waiting for us beyond Cairo. I don't have answers here. Just go case by case? Just hope no one is going to go full bonkers in Africa? If we go down one step into the unknown by allowing Kurdistan we have to wonder what step is going to take us into a deep dark forest. I don't think we there yet, but it's looming.
 
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Amir

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I don’t really have an opinion on this. I guess most people here are supporting Kurdistan or most people would agree that Taiwanese artists shouldn’t be eligible for China/stolen by China :>, or Palestinians for Israel.
But most likely there will be cases where people don’t necessarily agree and I wouldn’t want this contest to become too political.
We have a politics section in the forum for that xshrug
 

CypriotGirl

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I'm not against anything, but I believe allowing such states to compete will cause a mess, I'll take the case that I'm most familiar with to make an example:
Let's say Northern Cyprus is allowed to take part, what about Turkish Cypriot artists that are eligible to compete for Cyprus, will they be eligible for both? (Hello WorldVision then). Or will they be non-eligible for Cyprus anymore, despite them holding Cypriot citizenship?
 

hijirio

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I'm even against Palestine competing but ok

I think this is a music contest and politics should be aside. We are not entitled to decide what is a recognized state and what is not.
Kurdistan is just an autonomous entity and not recognized as a sovereign state. Plus, this will open a can of worms and we will have to do the same for Yakutsk for instance, they also have to represent their culture under "Russia". After all they are just regions, not independent states. yeaa that's my take bye
 

Grinch

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As much as I want those territories to be represented in OM just like other "official" countries, we have to accept this might cause so many political arguments. And OM should be about enjoying non-western countries music and having fun. Let's keep the politics in the politics section and not kill the fun.

P.S. @iowacorn speaking in favor or Kurdistan and "accidentally" not including Iraq in OM 41 playlist is sus to me. Very sus 🧐
 

iowacorn

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OMG sorry bb, just want supporting Kurdistan here to please people and didn’t include it to appease our more conservative members 🙃
 

Mainshow

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According to Wikipedia (I know, it´s a shit source but I think it´s a great thought to solve this issue), Hong Kong, Macau, Palestine are autonomous regions/provinces created by international agreements (first chart) whereas (Iraqi) Kurdistan is not - it´s listed in the same category Nakchivan, South Ossetia, Adjara, Abkhazia, Karakalpakstan and tons of regions in India and Indonesia. They all appear on the chart "created by internal statues" - If we allow "(Iraqi) Kurdistan" to take part, OM should make all these regions eligible as well.

Thus, I would argue that Palestine, Hong Kong and Macau should be the exception to the rule.
Unfortunately, OM let FRENCH POLYNESIA participate several times and apparently, it´s in the same category as (Iraqi) Kurdistan and all the other autonomous regions I´ve mentioned above.

Maybe we should make polls for all these regions whenever an user wants to submit a country for? - Same applies to Palestine, Taiwan, French Polynesia and Hong Kong, though.
 

iowacorn

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I think all separatist as well as autonomous regions should be allowed! That includes any region in Russia, China, and of course Kurdistan.
Btw to justify,,,

OM was started because WV swings very Euro/Anglo.

I think it would be awesome to loosen up the nation rules, of course while staying oriental, so we could represent such engulfed reasons. I would not go as far to the municipal level, but one level below the federal level, whatever it is for each country.

Everything is political whether you like it or not. Having someone represent Kurdistan, Bashkhoristan, Kashmir should not incite some sort of holy war here, but .you never know
 

Mainshow

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Btw to justify,,,

OM was started because WV swings very Euro/Anglo.

I think it would be awesome to loosen up the nation rules, of course while staying oriental, so we could represent such engulfed reasons. I would not go as far to the municipal level, but one level below the federal level, whatever it is for each country.

Everything is political whether you like it or not. Having someone represent Kurdistan, Bashkhoristan, Kashmir should not incite some sort of holy war here, but .you never know
Dunno about OM players but I know ESC fans who boycotted everything from Australia (Kylie Minogue´s music included) because Australia got invited to take part in Eurovision in 2015.

We Eurofans can be very extreme :D
 

iowacorn

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I'm totally ok with this but I'm not sure if it's necessary. There are around 20 participants for like 100+ countries/areas.
Of course it’s not necessary!! But it could be fun for some people and as far as I see it, it’s harmless.
 

Mainshow

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Thinking about this again, I think that "Hong Kong/Taiwan/China" makes more sense since these countries/territories usually are part of OM´s edition. Iraq/Syria are not - we don´t really "need" to see Iraqi Kurdistan and Iraq split so that two users can play with them, imo.
If we define "Kurdistan" as more than just "Iraqi Kurdistan", it will also be an issue regarding Kurish acts from Turkey, Syria and so on.

OM can make a political statement by including Kurdistan - a country which should have been created decades ago - but as other members have already pointed out, we could discuss this issue/content in the political section.
 

iowacorn

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A interesting way to look at it is this.

We currently represent ourselves by countries:

“The territory of a nation, especially an independent nation state or formerly independent nation; a political entity asserting ultimate authority over a geographical area; a sovereign state.”

We could expand to represent ourselves with nations:

“A historically constituted, stable community of people, formed based on a common language, territory, economic life, ethnicity and/or psychological make-up manifested in a common culture.”

For example, the existence of a Kurdish nation or most any other nation shouldn’t be political unless you are genocidal. I would expect anyone with any take on Kurdistan to at least acknowledge the existence of “the Kurdish nation” in this sense.

But then again, this wouldn’t be Kurdistan. The “-stan” makes it political
 

Mainshow

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A interesting way to look at it is this.

We currently represent ourselves by countries:

“The territory of a nation, especially an independent nation state or formerly independent nation; a political entity asserting ultimate authority over a geographical area; a sovereign state.”

We could expand to represent ourselves with nations:

“A historically constituted, stable community of people, formed based on a common language, territory, economic life, ethnicity and/or psychological make-up manifested in a common culture.”

For example, the existence of a Kurdish nation or most any other nation shouldn’t be political unless you are genocidal. I would expect anyone with any take on Kurdistan to at least acknowledge the existence of “the Kurdish nation” in this sense.

But then again, this wouldn’t be Kurdistan. The “-stan” makes it political

Iraqi Kurdistan exists, though, and thus, "-stan" is not really a political statement if we define Kurdistan as "Iraqi Kurdistan" (the autonomous region of Iraq). If we define it that way, we can only allow (Kurdish) acts who were born/live in Iraqi Kurdistan, though.

If we let "nations"/ethnicities take part, we also have to allow Assyrians, Yeziden, tons of minorities in Georgia, India etc. to compete it will be even messier than the scenarioes described above.
 
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