Dear WL-ers, please give me your thoughts on this concept. 🤍

[apasionata]

Disclaimer: I'm opening this PURELY for sake of testing the waters before coming up with elaborate proposal or nothing at all. This thread is based on purely HYPOTHETICAL implications. I wish nobody gets triggered by this nor my intention is to cause any bad blood.

Back in ancient days, NSC had something called Microstate Qualification. You can read more about it on NSC wikia.

Microstate Qualification

Microstate Qualification, also known as the "Microstate Prequalifiers" (MPQ) was a qualifying round for the Nation Song Contest that existed from NSC 10 to NSC 17. At the time, the number of entries in an edition was capped at 42, and depending on how many full nations were sitting out of an...

nsc.fandom.com

Microstate Nations

Microstates within the NSC world were sovereign states with very little land area. Moreover, in the Nation Song Contest they were nations of only partial membership in the NBU, due to restrictions within the contest relating to how many nations could participate. They could take part in the...

nsc.fandom.com

Microstate Qualification for NSC 10

Running order and participating songs: Astique entered qualification with song 'Roses Are Red' by Aqua. On the end of voting it recieved 36 points, but since Astique haven't voted its points were reduced for 50% so on the end Astique had 18 points that was enough to qualify, but Adamsburg...

nsc.fandom.com

As a regular WLSC player I am really enjoying spirits and personalities of all people taking part. I would like to make NSC more competitive and interesting for you guys while you go through these goddamn long and awful waiting periods and integrate you into the contest somehow.

My R O U G H envisioning of overhauled Microstate Qualification concept:

-Waiting List has one flagship in the contest per edition with original entry determined by previous internal voting amongst Waiting List nations submittees

- In case of win or PQ - nearest full roster nation gets it instead of Microstate Qualifer. The purpose is to be included in the contest ultimately - not to reap the benefits of victory or PQ !!!

- Microstate submissions start during previous edition Grand Final and the show takes part during submission period

etc. etc.

01. @Marlfox (Mormadorei) NSC 194?
02. @Sabrewulf238 (Dalisska) NSC 194?
03. @TomCherson (Tcher-Racoi)
04. @randajad (Griffin Empire)
05. @anselm (Reym-L-Dneurb)
06. @Uto (Utopolis)
07. @Himan (Banan)
08. @Luke (Lukeland)
09. @Barish (Effiland)
10. @HayashiM (Endórë)
11. @iowacorn (Öösingimäed)
12. @Jho (Halleloo)
13. @MiraShadowMan (Rehi Kaita)
14. @Canuck (New Acadia)
15. @Grinch (Gringotts)
16. @Vandalain (Bagrovor)
17. @Mike (Joseyeon)
18. @Ekholmia (Slagensala)
19. @Morocco2021 (Akatsuki)

 

[Uto]

I need to think about this stuff before I react properly, but general gist of my intuition is that this is a tokenist solution to a lesser problem.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Disclaimer: I'm opening this PURELY for sake of testing the waters before coming up with elaborate proposal or nothing at all. This thread is based on purely HYPOTHETICAL implications. I wish nobody gets triggered by this nor my intention is to cause any bad blood.

Back in ancient days, NSC had something called Microstate Qualification. You can read more about it on NSC wikia.

Microstate Qualification

Microstate Qualification, also known as the "Microstate Prequalifiers" (MPQ) was a qualifying round for the Nation Song Contest that existed from NSC 10 to NSC 17. At the time, the number of entries in an edition was capped at 42, and depending on how many full nations were sitting out of an...

nsc.fandom.com

Microstate Nations

Microstates within the NSC world were sovereign states with very little land area. Moreover, in the Nation Song Contest they were nations of only partial membership in the NBU, due to restrictions within the contest relating to how many nations could participate. They could take part in the...

nsc.fandom.com

Microstate Qualification for NSC 10

Running order and participating songs: Astique entered qualification with song 'Roses Are Red' by Aqua. On the end of voting it recieved 36 points, but since Astique haven't voted its points were reduced for 50% so on the end Astique had 18 points that was enough to qualify, but Adamsburg...

nsc.fandom.com

As a regular WLSC player I am really enjoying spirits and personalities of all people taking part. I would like to make NSC more competitive and interesting for you guys while you go through these goddamn long and awful waiting periods and integrate you into the contest somehow.

My R O U G H envisioning of overhauled Microstate Qualification concept:

-Waiting List has one flagship in the contest per edition with original entry determined by previous internal voting amongst Waiting List nations submittees

- In case of win or PQ - nearest full roster nation gets it instead of Microstate Qualifer. The purpose is to be included in the contest ultimately - not to reap the benefits of victory or PQ !!!

- Microstate submissions start during previous edition Grand Final and the show takes part during submission period

etc. etc.

01. @Marlfox (Mormadorei) NSC 194?
02. @Sabrewulf238 (Dalisska) NSC 194?
03. @TomCherson (Tcher-Racoi)
04. @randajad (Griffin Empire)
05. @anselm (Reym-L-Dneurb)
06. @Uto (Utopolis)
07. @Himan (Banan)
08. @Luke (Lukeland)
09. @Barish (Effiland)
10. @HayashiM (Endórë)
11. @iowacorn (Öösingimäed)
12. @Jho (Halleloo)
13. @MiraShadowMan (Rehi Kaita)
14. @Canuck (New Acadia)
15. @Grinch (Gringotts)
16. @Vandalain (Bagrovor)
17. @Mike (Joseyeon)
18. @Ekholmia (Slagensala)
19. @Morocco2021 (Akatsuki)

Oh boy I have a lot of thoughts about this.....get comfortable.

I'd be very interested in something like this being implemented....and honestly with how long the waiting list for NSC is....I think the waiting list deserves an extra opportunity to be more involved in the main contest. We owe it to the waiting list to at least make an effort at trying to implement something like this rather than just lazily dismissing it as not feasible.

Personally I think it would be great to have a waiting list country compete in each edition of NSC as a sort of guest country, sort of like what Australia was meant to be in 2015.

I've seen this idea brought up before and the usual response is "it doesn't fix the problem" or "we tried that and it didn't work" and then it's forgotten about for months on end before being brought up again. I'd rather see SOMETHING done, even if it's not perfect.

Sometimes it does feel like people here just aren't interested in putting the effort into making something like this happen. From what I've seen in the past people have been very dismissive of this idea. It doesn't have to be a perfect system, it can be worked on over time.

Ultimately I wish something like this would be given a chance in a trial period, rather than just being dismissed without much thought. We're not running the actual Eurovision song contest, we can afford to experiment. I mean arguably I'd say the actual Eurovision song contest has been more experimental than NSC has in recent years...and actual money gets spent on that. We don't have the same excuse here. There's no real risk attached to this.

Honestly it blows my mind that people aren't more receptive to this idea. It makes sense to me, it should have already happened years ago when the size of the waiting list started to swell and the waiting times started lasting for over a year. It shouldn't be a debate.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk everyone.

 

[apasionata]

Thank you for your input, please keep posting guys. Even saying "Agreed" is sufficient

Oh boy I have a lot of thoughts about this.....get comfortable.

I'd be very interested in something like this being implemented....and honestly with how long the waiting list for NSC is....I think the waiting list deserves an extra opportunity to be more involved in the main contest. We owe it to the waiting list to at least make an effort at trying to implement something like this rather than just lazily dismissing it as not feasible.

Personally I think it would be great to have a waiting list country compete in each edition of NSC as a sort of guest country, sort of like what Australia was meant to be in 2015.

I've seen this idea brought up before and the usual response is "it doesn't fix the problem" or "we tried that and it didn't work" and then it's forgotten about for months on end before being brought up again. I'd rather see SOMETHING done, even if it's not perfect.

Sometimes it does feel like people here just aren't interested in putting the effort into making something like this happen. From what I've seen in the past people have been very dismissive of this idea. It doesn't have to be a perfect system, it can be worked on over time.

Ultimately I wish something like this would be given a chance in a trial period, rather than just being dismissed without much thought. We're not running the actual Eurovision song contest, we can afford to experiment. I mean arguably I'd say the actual Eurovision song contest has been more experimental than NSC has in recent years...and actual money gets spent on that. We don't have the same excuse here. There's no real risk attached to this.

Honestly it blows my mind that people aren't more receptive to this idea. It makes sense to me, it should have already happened years ago when the size of the waiting list started to swell and the waiting times started lasting for over a year. It shouldn't be a debate.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk everyone.

 

[Brandt]

Does it happen to be 60th nation in the main roster, or are we going for 60+1 entries each turn?

I, for one, don't like the concept and I would rather not implement anything like that at all. But if we have to give it a try,

a. I would prefer if it is the 60th nation in the main roster rather than 60+1, beucase I wouldn't want MS to take a spot away from a nation in the main roster. Since the chances to qualify are already below 50%, things shouldn't get more difficult than as is.

b. And if the MS were to qualify, can we have one extra qualifier from the semi it qualifies? Like if MS in Semi 1 is qualifying, make it top 11 in the final. If it were to fail, the top 10 go to the final. So the actual competition for the MS is to make it into top 11 to be in the final, rather than take a spot from another nation.

People probably wouldn't like the idea, but that seems fair to me.

 

[HayashiM]

I am not sure I understand the idea 100%, so, just to clarify:

1. Is the idea to basically establish a "Waiting List" nation, whose entry would've been internally proposed and chosen by the waiting list members? (I presume it's this option)
2. or is the idea of having a "wildcard" for a Waiting List country who wins some sort of a qualification round and then represents the entire WL?

My main issue is I don't want to do any additional ranking of another 15-20 entries, so I wouldn't be in favour of choosing from a completely open new selection - should there be any additional voting, I think it would've been nice to limit the number of options to around 5.

For either case - how about the best 3-5 WL nations from the last WLSC edition nominate an entry, so the WL can further vote on these options? (had there been 2 WLSC editions since the last NSC took place, we could always just add the points from both WLSC editions to decide who gets to do the nominations). This can work for both scenarios 1 and 2, and could be with public or even secret nominations.

Or we could just say "screw additional voting!" and give a place in ESC to the best placing pure-WL entry in a WLSC edition. In case there are 2 WLSC editions in one NSC cycle - well there are also two semis after all. If any such entry already took part, its sending nation could just choose a replacement...

In general, I think any option is a nice opportunity that could prove very exciting.

 

[apasionata]

or is the idea of having a "wildcard" for a Waiting List country who wins some sort of a qualification round and then represents the entire WL?

This

 

[Gera11]

I wouldn't want to link WLSC in any form or function to NSC because it would destroy its laid back fun spirit. I mean sure, the contest is an indication on which of the WL members are active and have a long-term interest, but it's not a complete guarantee, since some of the ones who ignore the contest may turn out to be active after they join the main roster (and in the case of some, might post their first forum post ever lol)

Rather than (re)creating a prequalification round a la Kvalifikacija za Millstreet 1993, which is basically a big band-aid for the solution, I would like to see the number of participants be completed to the full capacity of 60 with one or two WL members (based on the current order on the list) every time one or two main roster nations take a break and such, which happens fairly often.

In the end, the problem lies with the general leniency of the rules which allows some nations to basically wing it for years on end, putting the minimum necessary effort into it, even if that. Sure, the situation is not as dire as the one in ISC, where you could wait even two to three years, but having to wait one year is still too much for many people. I'm not sure if anything major will ever change because a chunk of the main roster nations cannot possibly relate to the woes of WLers, having not been in that situation for years, if ever.

 

[HayashiM]

I wouldn't want to link WLSC in any form or function to NSC because it would destroy its laid back fun spirit. I mean sure, the contest is an indication on which of the WL members are active and have a long-term interest, but it's not a complete guarantee, since some of the ones who ignore the contest may turn out to be active after they join the main roster (and in the case of some, might post their first forum post ever lol)

Do you think people would've changed their approach if there was the qualification incentive? Or what makes you think that?

 

[Gera11]

Do you think people would've changed their approach if there was the qualification incentive? Or what makes you think that?

Yeah, I think some would take a much more competitive (maybe even cutthroat-ish) approach which would probably lead to some dramas.

 

[Edweis]

I have a lot to say about the current system in general but I'll try to stay on topic here.

Some of you already know, because we discussed it in LLs or elsewhere, but a few months ago when I was still in WL I wanted to make a similar proposal that would not resolve the core of the problem, but that would at least increase WL's involvement into NSC.
However, it came to my attention while reading previous threads that this idea wouldn't be taken well. But because I think the arguments thrown there were utter bullshit and because this topic is brought up again, allow me to give my opinion even if I'm not a WLer anymore.

My idea at that time was to try the OM system : let the WL nations fill in for those who didn't confirm or are on a break. The spot(s) would be given to the highest placed WL nation(s) that sent a reserve entry (this way, those who don't want to participate wouldn't have to). No preliminary round and no link to WLSC or whatsoever.
I don't know about you, but it always annoyed me a little when I saw 3 to 4 empty spots in the semis that could have allowed me to play.
A problem would arise if the WL nation gets in the Top 6, and hence a PQ spot. For all I care, I would let them keep this PQ but I know many wouldn't like this idea, so the best solution would be to just ignore it and give this PQ to the 7th place. Only maybe if they win we would let them host if they want to, with still an additional PQ for 7th place (so people don't throw a fit), and no-WL filling if we have 60 participants (counting this national) in the next edition.

And about main roster nations that would be salty if a WL nation got a spot in the final instead of them : I don't care. For me letting people have fun by decreasing the burden of the WL should be more important than being competitive.


EDIT : and of course @Gera11 was faster. Maybe if I didn't take 4 hours to write a post this wouldn't have happened lol

 

[randajad]

I wouldn’t be mad if this was implemented.

I wouldn’t be mad even if WL became one extra nation. Also, just use Laul or Låttävling as a nf

 

[HayashiM]

Yeah, I think some would take a much more competitive (maybe even cutthroat-ish) approach which would probably lead to some dramas.

I think the what you call "laid back fun spirit" thing is caused by the current combination of NSC nations (of which some perhaps treat WLSC as their sandbox), and a couple of us current WL nations who maybe try to remain competitive a little but basically just prefer to remain true to our own taste and go our own way (even if it means many subpar results in the long term). I believe most of this wouldn't have changed. Edit: plus it might motivate some of the non-competing WL nations to start taking part in WLSC, which I see as a potential plus.

I wouldn’t be mad if this was implemented.

I wouldn’t be mad even if WL became one extra nation. Also, just use Laul or Låttävling as a nf

Well, of course, for the time being linking WLSC to NSC in this way would've just meant that Griffin Empire becomes the de facto 61st nation

 

[randajad]

Well, of course, for the time being linking WLSC to NSC in this way would've just meant that Griffin Empire becomes the de facto 61st nation

 

[randajad]

Now for real: I love WLSC, it has its trends, works in such an interesting way, and it is basically us sending songs we are obsessed at the moment, and I think that wouldn’t change much if it became prequalifying round or something.

However I like 2G’s () idea better - not all of us would always want to take part in the big contest

 

[Gera11]

I think the what you call "laid back fun spirit" thing is caused by the current combination of NSC nations (of which some perhaps treat WLSC as their sandbox), and a couple of us current WL nations who maybe try to remain competitive a little but basically just prefer to remain true to our own taste and go our own way (even if it means many subpar results in the long term). I believe most of this wouldn't have changed. Edit: plus it might motivate some of the non-competing WL nations to start taking part in WLSC, which I see as a potential plus.

I'm personally treating WLSC as a contest where I can interact with the WL members in a meaningful way because for a long time there was really no direct interaction - bar some occasional spin-offs - with them. For me, at the moment, some of the WL nations feel more full of life and personality than some actual main roster members, but that's probably due to the great members we have in our community, such as you or Griffin Empire for example who are very active and put a lot of soul in everything. I rejoined WLSC in 2016 as a Waiting List member but I continued to participate even after joining the main roster because it continued to have such an active community, even when the number of participants dwindled below 10.

WLSC is also an opportunity for me send entries that are not doomed to fail in a semi-final, so there's that as well. Plus the actual chance to host an edition and thus showcase my nation, a thing that I never had the occasion to do in NSC, nor will I probably do in near future.

If the WL members are not keen on the idea of the main roster nations to keep participating, sure we can withdraw, but I feel like we became part of the project just as much as the regular WL players. From baby's first contest, like it was for a long time, something to do to pass the time until the main roster, it became a contest with its own identity instead.

 

[HayashiM]

If the WL members are not keen on the idea of the main roster nations to keep participating, sure we can withdraw, but I feel like we became part of the project just as much as the regular WL players. From baby's first contest, like it was for a long time, something to do to pass the time until the main roster, it became a contest with its own identity instead.

Of course main roster nations should stay in WLSC, it would've been so much poorer without them!

I think if WLSC's winner got a spot in NSC, it would've been more like Sanremo to ESC than your usual national final to ESC. Sure, the winner goes there, but it's still very much its own thing.

(now, do I recall correctly you're not that much of a fan of Sanremo? Sorry, my memory really isn't what it used to be )

Anyway, the 2G idea is of course also good - I admit it's much easier to implement and actually makes NSC more balanced when some regulars aren't there, so, you know, two flies with one hit...

 

[Leydan]

I'm not a fan of WLSC becoming a prequalifying round tbh, mainly because I would no longer feel welcome or able to particpate there when WLSC is one of my favourite contests to take part in. It's super friendly and chill atmosphere, I don't think it's anything to do with NSCers treating it as their little play pen - some of them never even left it when they made the main roster and once upon a time WLSC was kept alive by main roster nations when the particpant numbers got as low as 5. On top of that, the taste of WLSC is reasonably diverse yet still a very different type of energy compared to NSC at large which is another reason for why I love it; I can send songs there that I wouldn't to the main roster. Even with WLSC aside, the idea of another round added onto NSC with more songs to rank is kinda meh. I also think some wouldn't be encouraged to send the songs they're most passionate to send if there isn't even a guarantee of it making the main roster contest. Not to mention not everyone may want to participate in that.

I know many are opposed but if there is the will power to find a solution, as with the evil dots then one can be found. For me the easiest would be what edweis & Gera suggested and allow WL nations who send a reserve entry to temporarily occupy the place of a country who is banned/on break/failed to send an entry and simply always keep it at 60 participants. There is literally no change to main rosters having to listen to extra songs and then those waiting can still enjoy being part of he main contest, even if it is intermittent. It's a simple change but still one that allows those waiting a chance to enjoy NSC without waiting years. I know for me when I was at the top of the list it is super frustrating being refused participation when there were free spaces and we had countries skipping every other edition and then some routinely failing to vote in the finals - luckily thats been dealt with though now. Something like this would have been great for me personally.

 

[Gera11]

(now, do I recall correctly you're not that much of a fan of Sanremo? Sorry, my memory really isn't what it used to be )

I like the concept in theory and I like Italian music, but for the life of me I hadn't had the patience to follow an edition in full.
Maybe in 2022!

 

[randajad]

I like the concept in theory and I like Italian music, but for the life of me I hadn't had the patience to follow an edition in full.
Maybe in 2022!

It literally lasts 5 full days I need sleep