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Block voting - It's getting worse

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Rusch

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I meant Texas Lightning and Roger Cicero (16 of 24 isn`t pretty well). There were many cheesy German entries, but these two were quite good, but fail to impress completely. Satelite was the first competetive approach after being beaten many times. ;)
Just recognised. Roger was not on the 16th place. Hi finished 19th!
 

Woohoo

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Yep, the guy with a boring ballad with a gr8 voice (not so "clear" like Evelina's vocals though).
So Georgia votes for great voices? :mrgreen: If yes, then why did they give 8pts to Azerbaijan in 2010?
 

otto

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Some thoughts on this issue.

To begin with - some extent of block-voting is natural. Different parts of Europa belongs to different cultural regions. A country is more likely to share the taste of other countries in the same region - than in other cultural regions.

I've studied the voting and have some thoughts about those patterns.

- The blocks that have the most extreme voting patterns seems to be the nordic countries and the balkans. If you look that the nordic countries Norway looks to be the worst - having all four neigbours at the top four positions. Neither Norway nor Denmark gave any points to Azerbaijan, Italy. The nordic countries also looks to be most out of touch with the resut of Europe.

Results votes from Nordic countries:
1. Ireland
2. Finland
3. Sweden
4. Denmark
5. Germany
6. Iceland
All western and northerns european countries. Best east block countrie was Hungary (due to 12 points from another country belonging to the uralic language group.)

If you then look at the result from the other "nothern" part of western-Europe (UK, Ireland, Netherlands, Belgiu, Austra, Germany and Switzerland) - they also reveal distict different tastes than eastern and southern europe. Ukraina, for instance, did not get one single point from these countries - rather special for a country finishing 4th total. No points to Georgia either. Azerbaijan did not get any points from neither UK nor Ireland. Still not so much block voting as the nordic countries, probably due to being a more diversified region. The overachiever was Austra who came 7th among the votes from this country.

The sounthern-europe was more similar to the eastern countries thant the northerns european votings. One may mention that Spain got 12 points from both neighbours - and not much else. France also did well here. Still southern europa had Azerbaijan, Italy, Sweden and Ukraine among their own top 5. Quite different from the northern regions.

The balkans also had a very distinct voting pattern, having Bosnia, Slovenia and Serbia as their top three countries. The followed by Ukraine, Azerbaijan and Italy. First neigbours - then in line with the generel taste of Eurpe.

Moving east one can see that especially Denmark is out of vaour. One ponts from Belarous - thats all from the former sovjet republics (excluding the baltic countries), only Slovenia gav them any points from balkan.

Other notable things:

- Azerbaijan did mediocre in the nordic countries, the british islands and the german-speking world.
- Italy was out of favour up north, but also in parts of the eastern europe.
- Sweden did quite good in southern and eastern europe - though not so much in former soviet-republics - but only small figures. Still - maybe the song which was most evenly liked throughout Europe - with the notable exception of the german-speaking countries where thed did not get any points.
- Ukraine did only get 2 points from Sweden - and then none from the rest of the northern part of the western world. The most obvious east-european favoured entry.
- Denmark on the other han did rather poor in eastern europe.
- Ireland did very well in north/west - and very poor in south/east.
- Curiously UK did quite bad in north/west, and got most of ther points from southern and eastern europe.
- Russia too would do very poorly if not for other former soviet republics.

Which countries is most affected from not have that many natural neigbours, and as such have a drawback in the competition? Might I suggest a country like Switzerland who alwasys seems to underperfom?
 

otto

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I think in the final, the block voting isn't that much of a problem. The only thing that worries me, is what would happen, if all counties of one block reach the same semi. We might end up with 8 balkan countries as qualifieres. When this happens, there will be hughe uproar.

Not possible. Participating countries are split in different pots based on previous voting patterns.

I thing there is two points that have to be made out from this subject.
- Voting patterns seems to be just as obvious in west as in east.
- Block voting can also be due to countries in the same cultural region shares taste more often.
 

otto

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I think the european audience is pretty good at picking the right winner every year, block-voting or not. In the end it's not who gets the 12-pointer from the neighbour who WINS, but the country that get points from "everyone", that would be an interesting statistic to read. Perhaps it would show that the country getting a 6 from a far away country is most likely to win in the end. I feel Norway is getting fair treatment in the ESC.
This countries got points from most countries in the final:
Sweden - 32 (seems to be the most evenly liked song in the final east and west)
Azerbaijan - 30
Italy - 30
UK - 25 (but only 1x12, 1x10 and 0x8...)
Ukraine - 23 (very unevely located...)
Slovenia 21
Iceland - 20
Germany - 20

Norway got 30 points in their semi-finals. From which 18 points were from the two fellow nordic countries - and 12 points combined from the 18 other countries voting. That spells it out in all kind of clarity how much that song failed. In my opinion due to a weak start, and unispired and poor verse - with poor vocals not helping. Than it doesn't help that the chorus is rather ok - because first impression matters so much.
 

Rusch

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Not possible. Participating countries are split in different pots based on previous voting patterns.
Really? I didn`t know that. Somebody had a brilliant idea. This made the whole Semis much fairer.
 

LakZaNokte

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ok, blocks suck and it is annoying and everything but
for victory, u need more than "your block"

this years' winner, azerbaijan:
12 - malta, russia, turkey
10 - croatia, moldova, romania, san marino, ukraine
8 - albania, austria, b&h, cyprus, estonia, georgia, iceland, lithuania, poland, portugal

is that a "block victory"?
in short, u may get a few 12's from your block, but u also need substantial points from others to win, like in this case.
 

otto

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is that a "block victory"?
in short, u may get a few 12's from your block, but u also need substantial points from others to win, like in this case.
No, I guess Ukraine showed that you need some points from everywhere to go to the top. Still Azerbaijan did significantly weaker in the northern part of western-Europe, but that is no problem. Almost all songs had some kind of regional variation. Anyone know if we'll get to know the jury and the televote seperately for each country?
 

MyHeartIsYours

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The BBC seem to accept that bloc voting occurs also, on BBC News they talked to an entertainment reporter from the Arena and they said that bloc voting is making a reappearance and they also mentioned how it was booed every time it occurred - I think the fact that it was booed has made people over here realise that the contest itself doesnt want such voting. Simon Webbe also has said he believe it occurs and the Daily Mirror mentioned that 'tactical' voting prevented us from achieving a higher position (they still said that Azerbaijan was a great song however :D).
 

otto

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The BBC seem to accept that bloc voting occurs also, on BBC News they talked to an entertainment reporter from the Arena and they said that bloc voting is making a reappearance and they also mentioned how it was booed every time it occurred - I think the fact that it was booed has made people over here realise that the contest itself doesnt want such voting. Simon Webbe also has said he believe it occurs and the Daily Mirror mentioned that 'tactical' voting prevented us from achieving a higher position (they still said that Azerbaijan was a great song however :D).
The UK does have a smaller "block" than many other countries. Only shares land border with Ireland (not counting overseas territories. Perhaps UK also is a different cultural region that separates them rather much from the rest of europa? I am inclined to think so, but I am not sure. If they had participated with England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland - I am sure they would have a few more points!

I guess they would have been more accused of block voting themselves too :-)
After all, also the UK have som "block tendencies", giving 12p to Ireland. That was a song that were really out-of-favour in most parts of Europe, except the northwestern corner and a few other exceptions. That was a song that did well in english-speaking countries, and countries that in cultural settings looks very much to England/USA - like the nordic countries. Block voting - or just distinct patterns of cultural preferences?

While I do not deny block voting appars - the reasons for it is not so straightforward. One important reason might just be that musical taste differs between different cultural regions.

Interestingly, it is hard to see any geographical patterns for the votes the UK got. For instance - their highest scores came from countries as diverse as Italy and Bulgaria, and they did quite good in southern europe and old sovjet states - and less good in central europa and the nordic countries.
 

AlekS

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The BBC seem to accept that bloc voting occurs also, on BBC News they talked to an entertainment reporter from the Arena and they said that bloc voting is making a reappearance and they also mentioned how it was booed every time it occurred - I think the fact that it was booed has made people over here realise that the contest itself doesnt want such voting. Simon Webbe also has said he believe it occurs and the Daily Mirror mentioned that 'tactical' voting prevented us from achieving a higher position (they still said that Azerbaijan was a great song however :D).
Say something to the BBC and especially to Daily Mirror and people who were booing Cyprus:

"Go and F-CK yourself :cool:". Disrespect for me, somebody's country votes --> disrespect from me.
If somebody dislikes our votes they should go and eff themselves, just go and eff :geek:
Sore losers.

Ask Rybak, or Lena - maybe she will explain them how to win :rolleyes:
 

MyHeartIsYours

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The UK does have a smaller "block" than many other countries. Only shares land border with Ireland (not counting overseas territories. Perhaps UK also is a different cultural region that separates them rather much from the rest of europa? I am inclined to think so, but I am not sure. If they had participated with England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland - I am sure they would have a few more points!

I guess they would have been more accused of block voting themselves too :-)
After all, also the UK have som "block tendencies", giving 12p to Ireland. That was a song that were really out-of-favour in most parts of Europe, except the northwestern corner and a few other exceptions. That was a song that did well in english-speaking countries, and countries that in cultural settings looks very much to England/USA - like the nordic countries. Block voting - or just distinct patterns of cultural preferences?

While I do not deny block voting appars - the reasons for it is not so straightforward. One important reason might just be that musical taste differs between different cultural regions.

Interestingly, it is hard to see any geographical patterns for the votes the UK got. For instance - their highest scores came from countries as diverse as Italy and Bulgaria, and they did quite good in southern europe and old sovjet states - and less good in central europa and the nordic countries.
The 'Commonwealth bloc', if you want to call it, formed of the United Kingdom, Ireland and Malta, does exist and I fully acknowledge that - Id also accept if a new voting system meant that our votes for each other would be downgraded. What I dont appreciate is that members of other 'blocs', often much larger blocs which actually have a considerable impact on the final result, deny that anything of the sort exists even though their top 3 results have all gone to their chums!!

Also in the case of our bloc, we dont vote for each other if we dont like the songs - Ireland and Malta obviously just thought Blue were 'okay' so gave us lower points - Ireland obviously loved Jade Ewen as they gave us 10 and Malta obviously loved Scooch cuz they gave us 12. The ex-USSR bloc is also reasonable in this way as they do not vote strongly for each other if they do not like the songs but for instance the ex-Yugoslavian and Greece/Cyprus bloc's just vote no matter what - it's completely unacceptable. I mean, what's good about it, 'oh I voted for the same country as I always do!' It's pathetic that such votes exist.

I care about this contest and I dont want it to be ruined, it's reputation has been knocked (in the West) so badly during the 2000's that I never thought it would be able to come back. But it did, and I dont want it going back to the bad old times, that's all :).
 

MyHeartIsYours

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Say something to the BBC and especially to Daily Mirror and people who were booing Cyprus:

"Go and F-CK yourself :cool:". Disrespect for me, somebody's country votes --> disrespect from me.
If somebody dislikes our votes they should go and eff themselves, just go and eff :geek:
Sore losers.
It's not disrespect for anybody, it's just respect for the contest. I dont want it to be clogged up with non-musical votes, leave those to the European Elections! Why people have to use a musical contest for means other than music is beyond me. If people wish to use the contest for such means then they should leave and let those who want votes based on music get on with normal voting.
 

AlekS

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It's not disrespect for anybody, it's just respect for the contest. I dont want it to be clogged up with non-musical votes, leave those to the European Elections! Why people have to use a musical contest for means other than music is beyond me. If people wish to use the contest for such means then they should leave and let those who want votes based on music get on with normal voting.
We are talking about neighbour voting.
Why do you think that it's not about music!??? Never thought that we have our own taste? Just like Balkans and United Kingdom too? (should we shoot you for your 12 pts?).
Please explain me why people from Cyprus should be booed? Why people from Ukraine or Norway should be attacked by your press? ;)
 

sannerz

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The 'Commonwealth bloc', if you want to call it, formed of the United Kingdom, Ireland and Malta, does exist and I fully acknowledge that - Id also accept if a new voting system meant that our votes for each other would be downgraded. What I dont appreciate is that members of other 'blocs', often much larger blocs which actually have a considerable impact on the final result, deny that anything of the sort exists even though their top 3 results have all gone to their chums!!

Also in the case of our bloc, we dont vote for each other if we dont like the songs - Ireland and Malta obviously just thought Blue were 'okay' so gave us lower points - Ireland obviously loved Jade Ewen as they gave us 10 and Malta obviously loved Scooch cuz they gave us 12. The ex-USSR bloc is also reasonable in this way as they do not vote strongly for each other if they do not like the songs but for instance the ex-Yugoslavian and Greece/Cyprus bloc's just vote no matter what - it's completely unacceptable. I mean, what's good about it, 'oh I voted for the same country as I always do!' It's pathetic that such votes exist.

I care about this contest and I dont want it to be ruined, it's reputation has been knocked (in the West) so badly during the 2000's that I never thought it would be able to come back. But it did, and I dont want it going back to the bad old times, that's all :).
That is not true about the ex-Yugoslav region. They might constantly vote for each other, but the top points go to the truly best songs in the ex-Yu region. Azerbaijan received quite a few votes from the ex-Yu region as well. Just as it does in any other voting block. I don't think you're being reasonable here.
 
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