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יִשְרָאֵל - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

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evilperson

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Re: ????????? - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

^That's an easy thing to blame it on, but the song just wasn't up to par and he did not deliver a good performance. Don't you remember Shiri in 2005 in the era of 100% televoting? Where was the diaspora voting then knocking Israel down? She had a lovely song and an awesome performance and was voted into 4th place. For me 14th was too generous for Israel this year. He should be grateful to have even reached the final, he technically just scraped through.
 

Israeliboy

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Re: ????????? - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

^
You can't say there wasn't disapora and block votings this year :lol:
 

evilperson

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Re: ????????? - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

^Please read my post again, I never claimed that.
 

94ayd

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Re: ????????? - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

Of course he wasn't for 14th, he was for bottom 5. :lol:
 

imno12u

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Re: ????????? - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

To be honest, I think Israel benefitted from diaspora greatly. They came 14th with one of the worst songs in the competition. I can't explain how else it did so well!
 

Vedenneito

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Re: ????????? - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

SWEDEN?! Harel might be performing in SWEDEN?

Whyyyyy? They always do this, always always always! All bands and artists always go to Sweden and never to Finland! It makes me so angry. We gave Harel 10 points and would have sold out concerts for him, but that doesn't matter... Just because there is a little bit of sea between Sweden and Finland, the organisers of the tours can't be bothered to cross it. :(
 

Richard

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Re: ????????? - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

imno12u said:
To be honest, I think Israel benefitted from diaspora greatly. They came 14th with one of the worst songs in the competition. I can't explain how else it did so well!

Absolutely agree, had this song been by another country it would not have even made the final. Israel did better in 2009, it was a better song!
 

apelles

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Re: ????????? - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

Bottom 5, huh? :roll: I can't say that Israel deserved to win this year, but IMO 14th was ridiculous. I think it was just the case of Skaat hitting an off-key note at almost the worst possible time and the fact that he was nervous which affected his facial expressions (which were in extreme close up), plus it was not the right type of song for Eurovision, and there's a definite bias for songs sung in English. With that said, he gave a solid performance up until the last 30 seconds with probably the most difficult song to sing of the competition, so I would give him credit for that and for singing in his own language. Israel definitely should have finished in the top 10 and it's in my top 5. I found problems with almost all the entries this year, even Belgium. I think many if not most of the people who voted on the Benzencon awards might agree Israel should have finished much higher than 14th.

Block voting has always been a problem, but if you look at Norway, the singer was punished severely too for hitting a couple of off-key notes. It seems like if you want to win it's better to pick an easy song to sing, with a catchy melody even if it has no substance, and to sing it in English, even if it's bad English.
 

Vedenneito

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Re: ????????? - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

Yes, it's not like Harel was the only one with pitch problems... And by the way, neither were Noa and Mira last year.

And we have no significant minority here in Finland, yet we gave Israel 10 points. It is possible that the some of the points Harel got were given also by people who genuinely liked the song (which IS excellently composed - this could also be seen in the fact that it got all three Marcel Bezencon Awards just moments before the final). Yes, every year everyone votes for their neighbours and friends and ethnic groups - but that is how it will always be. I don't think any of it should be taken that seriously.
 

apelles

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Re: ????????? - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

That's right! I was at Oslo and attended the second semi and the final dress rehearsal and the thing that struck me was how many families were there at the stadium. I think a lot of the voters were young children and teens and they don't tend to be the most analytical people out there. Plus you know that a lot of viewers voted before watching all the entries this year, and even if most waited, how fair is it that a country like Norway or Israel has the same voting power as Russia or Germany, or that a country can't vote for its own entry?

It would have been nice if Israel would have won, but I personally don't take Eurovision seriously. It's just a lot of fun. I view it as the world's biggest party game.
I also don't care that much if Skaat wasn't perfect at the finals. Every singer is entitled to an off night and despite what Skaat said to me Eurovision isn't a sport. There shouldn't be any great stigma attached to blowing a song under pressure, because quite frankly I've watched a lot of the biggest stars in the world flop in front of a much larger TV audience (remember Live Aid? It probably had 10 times the number of TV audience as this year's Eurovision). I don't think it's fair to say that Skaat flopped, he hit a couple of off-notes at the end singing an extremely difficult song (probably more difficult than it needed to be but that's another post). Skaat is a very talented singer and he can sing this song well. He was flawless at the third dress rehearsal and I would be willing to lay down a hundred dollar bet, it was that performance that helped seal the wins of the three awards--it was great). Anyway, I can always watch the KDAM, which I prefer because it doesn't have all the vocal gymnastics that they added later. It was a very heart felt performance. Music isn't a sport; in the end, it doesn't matter so much when you sing a song great, it just matters that you did it at least once, and it's that performance that will live on.
 

Israeliboy

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Re: ????????? - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

No matter what people, for us, Harel is the real winner :D together with Lena, her song is successful in Israeli charts!
 

evilperson

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Re: ????????? - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

apelles said:
Bottom 5, huh? :roll: I can't say that Israel deserved to win this year, but IMO 14th was ridiculous. I think it was just the case of Skaat hitting an off-key note at almost the worst possible time and the fact that he was nervous which affected his facial expressions (which were in extreme close up), plus it was not the right type of song for Eurovision, and there's a definite bias for songs sung in English. With that said, he gave a solid performance up until the last 30 seconds with probably the most difficult song to sing of the competition, so I would give him credit for that and for singing in his own language. Israel definitely should have finished in the top 10 and it's in my top 5. I found problems with almost all the entries this year, even Belgium. I think many if not most of the people who voted on the Benzencon awards might agree Israel should have finished much higher than 14th.

Block voting has always been a problem, but if you look at Norway, the singer was punished severely too for hitting a couple of off-key notes. It seems like if you want to win it's better to pick an easy song to sing, with a catchy melody even if it has no substance, and to sing it in English, even if it's bad English.

I'm sorry but this is flawed logic. Of course Israel and Norway will be docked marks for missing notes versus other entries. Their whole act is about presenting a ballad type song where the vocal is the main element of the performance. If they mess that up, then they have nothing. You can't claim they deserved a higher position because they were harder songs to perform than others. These are the songs they chose and its entirely on their shoulders if they weren't able to pull the vocals off properly. In a ballad, its much more off-putting to have the singer missing notes than it is in a different style because that is what this genre demands.

If Israel was truly a song that appealed to all European audiences, then I believe that they would have scored better. But that was not the case and that is the hard reality. Harel can blame anyone or anything he wants but the whole package didn't click and it didn't appeal.
 

apelles

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Re: ????????? - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

I agree with the statement that it didn't click with people. I could see that at the stadium even when he gave an excellent vocal performance. I asked people around me and they said they didn't understand what he was saying. At the finals (and semis), it was a problem not only with the vocals, but also with the presentation. It was much more cohesive and real at the KDAM.

What you say about ballads makes a lot of sense, but if you're right, why didn't Ireland score higher? Where did she make any major mistakes? The only mistake I could see was in the wardrobe department. This is all subjective so I can see where people might have scored Israel in the bottom 10 but I personally like expressive singing and I was impressed with the emotional quality of Skaat's singing up until the last 20 or 30 seconds, which I agree he should be penalized for, but not down to 14th place. IMO there weren't that many good entries; it was a night of screw ups. Germany's song was catchy, but Lena can't sing and her accent got on my nerves. Almost all the singers who sang in English bothered me, so I docked them major points from the get go. An exception, of course, was Belgium. Tom Dice's song was nice and touching, but his vocals were very derivative. Norway's song was way too retro for me (I don't know where, but I know I've heard that song before). Don't even get me started on Russia. Also there weren't that many strong songs this year. Drip Drop was the best song IMO, but Safura also had major presentation problems plus her accent is really terrible, and to top it off she can't sing that well.

I think you are also right that much of the blame falls on Skaat and Israel because they made the song much harder than it needed to be. "Milim" (while a quality song) just was too much of a downer for the Eurovision audience and it went against many of Skaat's most appealing assets--his performing ability, his natural charisma, even his abilty to sing in English (which is pretty good), etc. Israel was hampered even by a lack of flexibility in their choices for a visual backdrop because this song demanded a specific type of presentation. It's too bad that many in Europe and the former Soviet Union didn't see how amazing Skaat can be. I heard his impressive vocal capabilities at the dress rehearsal and to see his performing capabilities check out some of his stuff on youtube. I recommend his electric version of Shlomo Arti's "At Ve Ani" and there's an off-the-cuff performance he gives of "Od Yair Alay" at an Israeli radio station that's a bit raw, but vocally stunning.
 

evilperson

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Re: ????????? - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

^
Unfortunately, the reality with Ireland is that Niamh is nowhere near the vocalist she was in 1993. She seems very uncomfortable hitting the notes and while I personally like the song, I wasn't surprised to see it end up near the bottom. But Ireland qualified and they should take off from this point and send a stronger entry next year. I think the best example, keeping Israel in mind, is Shiri in 2005. She also sang a ballad and she managed to reach 4th place. The singer, the song, the vocals, and the staging/presentation all clicked together and it was an appealing performance. And this was also when the voting was completely decided by televoting. It was a legitimately good song that Europe supported.

I couldn't agree more that everyone is entitled to their opinion about all of the songs, but if Harel is pointing the finger at diaspora votes for his 14th place he needs to rewatch his performance. My opinion of Milim was never positive, I thought they left much better songs behind in KDAM. As for accents, I agree that its off-putting only to the point where someone is singing in English and it sounds like a completely different language. Its one thing for a performer to sing in their native tongue and a completely different monster when they butcher a different one.
 

apelles

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Re: ????????? - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

I agree with what Israeliboy wrote about countries voting for each other. I laughed when I saw some of the votes too because it was very predictable. On another forum I tried to start a thread back in early March about predicting which countries would give each other 12 points. I began by predicting that Greece or Cyprus (or maybe both, I forgot) would give each other 12 points. Nobody wanted to play, but I had to laugh when I saw the results. I'm not sure what Skaat meant by that comment (it could be the writer just caught him at an unguarded moment when he had to be feeling some disappointment), but I agree the disappointing results weren't largely because of block voting. It was the bad impression of the visual presentation and the one big miscue near the end (IMO that punishment was out of proportion to Skaat's overall performance and versus many of the other singers, who were bad in one way or another pretty much from start to finish). I contend the presentation was as critical in determining the results as that miscue. You're absolutely right the people didn't connect, but Israel always was saddled with 2 major problems--they had a really sad song that was too heavy for Eurovision, and they didn't sing it in English (which I think was the right artistic choice, but it was Euro hara-kiri). It would have taken a super human effort like the KDAM performance to make the song connect with people. Honestly, I think Le'an could have caused Skaat problems too--the end is extremely difficult to sing and he didn't exactly nail it at the KDAM either. Skaat has good range, but IMO he (or whoever came up with the idea of adding those screams) didn't need to make things harder than they needed to be. His best assets to me are the smooth way he sings and the special emphasis he gives to certain words, both clear and nuanced, which gives the words an emotional punch that no other singer at this year's Eurovision could match. When Skaat tries to hit the high notes it sometimes gets in the way of my enjoyment of his songs even if he lands them.

The Irish singer may not be as good as she was back in 1993 when she won, but she still sounded better than almost all of the other singers. I have a hard time believing 22 other entries were better than Ireland this year. I hate to be blunt but I think she finished so low because she's a little overweight, a lot older than most of the other contestants, she stood on stage like a tree, and her dress wasn't very flattering.
 

Vedenneito

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Re: ????????? - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

We have to remember that we don't know what exactly Harel has said and how he meant it - after my cousin became famous, I've learned not to trust even the most innocent interviews completely. They way meanings and comments are changed (or sometimes, unfortunately, deliberately twisted) is unbelievable - sometimes with my cousin it was like the reporter had not even been in the same room with him but just written down whatever he could come up with on his own.

And Ireland's singer also missed the biggest note of her song, quite badly too. Like I said before, there were very few pitch perfect performances that night.

The point about Harel's song not being in English is an interesting one - in Europe we are used to hearing all kinds of different languages all the time. Hit songs in Spanish, French, Italian, German, even Romanian have conquered the charts before. My American friends get extremely bothered if they don't understand the lyrics - whereas I don't mind if the song is great. So it is interesting that so many people watching Eurovision seem to care. Also note that in Finland EVERY SONG is subtitled as it is sung, so we knew what Harel was saying. And phones were picked up and his number was dialed quite a bit... Makes you think ae?
 

apelles

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Re: ????????? - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

What you are saying is true, Vedenneito, but even if what Skaat said was printed accurately and no matter how he meant it, I don't see it being that big a deal.

I don't recall Kavanaugh missing a note that noticeably. I would have to dock her a few points then. An analysis of the singers reported that she only hit about 10 bad notes during her song, which was one of the best of all the countries (Skaat was off around 22 times and Lena something like 67 by comparison).

That's just it, there weren't any great entries (where the song, the singing and the presentation were all extraordinary). One country that was pretty good on all three areas was France, but I think the performance lasted just over 2 minutes; Greece wasn't bad either. I guess Turkey gave a strong performance and the singing wasn't bad for rock, but the song was hardly "Tumblng Dice" (so great performance of a mediocre song I guess). Speaking of Dice, his song was charming and easy to cheer for, but the guy's vocal tics reminded me so much of the wanna be male singers on American Idol, all trying to channel whoever the sensitive singer-songwriter de jour is now (James Blunt, John Mayer, Jason Mraz, etc.) that it became tiresome after 30 seconds or so.

Israel rated high on my score card even with the missed notes, the presentation problems, and the lack of typical smoothness in Skaat's voice because even with all that he still did some things extremely well, things that no other singer could match like singing words with such powerful emotions--listen to how he sings "bagaron" and you don't need to understand what that means to feel the pain, the sense of someone wanting to hold on to something lost. No other singer I heard did anything remotely like that. Kavanaugh was also good at turning a phrase, but not as good at endowing specific words with this kind of expressive quality. So while other singers lost points for every line they struggled through in bad English, Skaat piled on points for each line of emotional singing. That's how Israel rated as high as 3 or 4 on my scorecard (which meant I would have given Israel a 9 or 8 if I was a member of the jury).

Other people may have been looking for other things, but I just don't see how someone could objectively rate Israel out of the top 10 even with all the problems I mentioned. I read some comments where people said they liked "Milim" but expressed disappointment about Skaat's poor performance at the finals (a sentiment that I obviously don't share), and I am thinking, well go watch his KDAM performance on youtube if you think that way because if you like the song, I don't think there's a singer alive who could have performed the song better at least on that day.
 

Israeliboy

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Re: ????????? - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

Harel didn't mean to say it. While you read it in Hebrew and English, it has different meanings. He said he doesn't believe/support in the ones who say Israel didn't succeed because politics!
 

apelles

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Re: ????????? - Israel 2010 - Harel Ska'at - Milim

Israeliboy, I think you are a very loyal fan, someone who is always supportive of Harel. I think he must feel very humbled to have such fans as you. If he's not, he ought to be. :)
 
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