A proposal

[Uto]

Dear denizens of the waiting list,

In a couple of days I again have to vote in a contest (to be clear, NSC, not the WLSC) in which I have no entry and who wins or loses is basically all the same to me. This has to be done to be a part of some contest, but really it feels like the only reason I'm doing it is for the vanity of others and I really dislike it. I have spoken to some of them and they claim that there are valid reasons, the arguments boil down to these two points:

- It shows commitment to NSC
- It trains/prepares you for NSC

As much as these people pretend that this is the case, the current rule that WL members have to vote in NSC does not really achieve any of these goals. I could simply order the NSC entries at random and have a result and no one would be any wiser, myself included. It would take me like 15 minutes every couple of weeks. I could also actually take the proper effort, but what am I learning exactly? I can see how it shows commitment, but am I not showing commitment by being active in the WLSC already? The rule is just kind of dumb really. Therefore I propose that NSC actually implements a rule that works towards achieving these goals, which is to make the WLSC mandatory for WL-members and drop the requirement to vote in the NSC. What does this achieve?

- People don't have to vote in a contest they are not a part of.
- Takes a slight bit more commitment than voting in the NSC as you have to also select an entry and be on time with that etc.
- Gives a decent chance of preparing someone for hosting when a member wins so it's a better training exercise.

I see only a single downside which is that it might limit interest in the actual NSC.

Now, since I'm just an uppity brat without any clout I would just get snubbed by people impervious to reason if I were to send this proposal just like that. For it to have any chance of succeeding it must first be proven that this proposal has the support of others. So what I wish for is that others might take a moment to dwell on this issue and state below if they see any merit in my line of reasoning or not and finally if they would support proposing this potential rule change to the NSC.

Regards,
Uto

 

[Uto]

Did anyone have time to form some sort of opinion on this? I can scarcely believe I'm the only one unhappy with the rules as they exist right now.

 

[dogmeat]

I think any such proposals should be posted in the main subforum.

 

[apasionata]

I agree with this tbh. Active involvement > Passive involvement for sake of dry 'displaying'

 

[Uto]

I think any such proposals should be posted in the main subforum.

I agree, but if I were to do that without first consulting the WL members I'd look like a chump. I'd much rather go there with a story about how there is a good amount of support from the WL members themselves. That is what this thread is for, to see if such support exists.

 

[DenizESC]

I support it.

It's one thing I hear every single WL member and members who don't want to join NSC complain about so it is a valid issue.

 

[JamieBrown]

I'm having no problems with the current rule, but I won't argue against a change, if the majority goes for it.

Just if WLSC will be mandatory I suggest that only WL nations may take part. Especially right now with already 20 participants in. I know that there were times, and may come again, when there were barely ten nations on the WL, but from my point of view the current situation keeps me back from WLSC, as it's only nations I rarely share a common taste in music. Don't get me wrong, it's great they are that committed in online contests and use their time also in this, but for me having to take part in the current state of WLSC would be a waste of my entries for bad results, while struggling to enjoy the other entries, with a few expeptions maybe, if some nations go for different type of entries.

 

[Paper7]

When would it end? I dislike a football league system in general.

The big problem for me would be, that it makes the whole thing of a waiting process for NSC senseless. It would be just two contests in one forum part. One would be like the profi league, one would be like a amateur league. And it could end with people see it as a punishment to move to NSC from WLSC on, cause they may like WLSC taste more. I wouldn't be surprised if in the future we have a case to discuss, where a WL nation seems to try to avoid to get to the "professional" contest with taking "pushing down the WL"-punishments at time.

Before this happens, it would be the right thing to open a new section in the forum with just another Contest like NSC, an "Alternatia Song Contest" for example. But this was also already a thing we've talked about in the past, and it was neglected by the forum administrator (and as far as i remember by the users to).

The best solution for WL members who don't like the current system is in my view to bring up new contest ideas like we had with WV in the past. For example: Having the All Around the World spin off from NSC as an additional contest to FSC, WV and NSC to reduce the waiting lists for every contest in the forum (if FSC and WV have one currently).

 

[Edweis]

I didn't forget about your proposal but it needed more thoughts before giving a proper answer.

The big problem for me would be, that it makes the whole thing of a waiting process for NSC senseless. It would be just two contests in one forum part. One would be like the profi league, one would be like a amateur league. And it could end with people see it as a punishment to move to NSC from WLSC on, cause they may like WLSC taste more. I wouldn't be surprised if in the future we have a case to discuss, where a WL nation seems to try to avoid to get to the "professional" contest with taking "pushing down the WL"-punishments at time.

Paper7 beat me to it, but this is the main reason why I'm against your suggestion. I'm afraid it would create an unnecessary division between WLSC and NSC, and could lead to the point where people wouldn't even see the advantage of joining NSC anymore. We would have two similar contests, but with no link between them besides the fact the members WLSC would lose would join NSC after a while.

It doesn't mean I don't understand your frustration. NSC is the only full contest, we don't know when the next place will be free and waiting for roughly a year can be tiring. But tbh I'm fine with the current format, I joined the WL on November 29th, we were 9 and since then 4 nations entered the main contest. It goes faster than I thought it would. And I discovered some nice songs with NSC, which I wouldn't have done if I wasn't obligated to vote.

My only complaint is the fact we can't participate in Congrats, there already isn't a lot of spin-offs so it's frustrating to lose some occasions. I'm sure we could find a way to integrate the WL with songs entered in WLSC editions which were held between NSC#171 and NSC#180 : from WLSC#179 to WLSC#195.

 

[Uto]

This is some good feedback, thanks a lot for that. I think I disagree on the hypothetical issue that people would want to perhaps stay in WLSC, but this can't be known by any of us and I must grant that it is a possibility, effectively giving a pretty solid argument not to raise the stock of WLSC.

The problem does not go away though. If there's a new spot in NSC every other contest I am still looking at about 35 contests before I'm in. That's years of waiting. Given a bit of hussle and tussle this might with some optimism go down to about 20 contests, but that's still looking at 40 hours of time invested in a contest I'm not a part of for no clear reason but vanity. It is just time being wasted and I do value my time. I imagine others value theirs.

A possible compromise would be if only the top 5 nations on the WL have to be that invested. Such a proposal would hold true to the principles laid out by NSC, it would also result in less time being wasted by others and less resentment towards the vanity of NSC as a whole.

The alternative solution stated by 7 that there might just be room for another contest is one I will happily entertain, but given the advent of OM I don't think it's very likely to gain support by the forum mods just like that. Also, the effect probably won't be a decrease in demand for the other contests per se. I don't see how it would drain this waiting list for instance. The selling point for NSC is that you can pick any song. That's an extremely strong selling point.

 

[Paper7]

As far as i remember it was the case that when WV was established, the NSC and FSC waiting list got shorter. It may be that this was just coincidence, but i dont think so.

But anyway: if there would be a new contest who would drain the WL down, it would not guarantee that we wouldn't end with a WL as long as today.