Block voting - It's getting worse

[seb89]

Macedonia has given plenty of points to Greece, they never give to us . . . this year we gave them 3.

Sorry, I need to write Greece-Macedonia. But I'm right though!

 

[FallenAngelII]

You like to emphasize thing, you shouldn't forget this one .

That's just because I'm too lazy to check the dictionary to see if the translation is 100% accurate when it comes to grammar. But the verb stems are accurate.

 

[Rose]

Sorry, I need to write Greece-Macedonia. But I'm right though!

lol ok I admit - you are right when it comes to Greece. It's quite sad actually, I wasn't a fan of the Greek song at all, but the choreography was great. On the other hand, I LOVED Cyprus, that was the winner for me. Shame some people can't seem to get that it's a song contest.

 

[SpZ]

Just pointing out the case of Russia this year and last year. Last year they had a really slavic entry and did quite good - got the votes from the slavic and neighbour countries. (Like while Estonia is not slavic, we can totally get the song). This year the had some weak euroblamerish which didn't even get much points from Belarus - often people vote for songs from the similiar countries because they get them and like them.

 

[seb89]

That's just because I'm too lazy to check the dictionary to see if the translation is 100% accurate when it comes to grammar. But the verb stems are accurate.

I don't know Portuguese, so I dont know much, but I guess "dás" is second person singular (confirmed by verbix.com)? Why are you changing that in Spanish into 3rd person plural in Spanish in the first sentence?

 

[FallenAngelII]

I don't know Portuguese, so I dont know much, but I guess "dás" is second person singular (confirmed by verbix.com)? Why are you changing that in Spanish into 3rd person plural in Spanish in the first sentence?

Whatever it is, it's nothing like whatever you'd translate it into Spanish since it appears Portuguese actually has locative, which Spanish lacks (Spanish utilizes prepositions). So unless a Spaniard had studied some Portuguese grammar, they'd have no clue what the heck was being said since the lyrics would translate to (if one were to decipher it with one's knowledge of Spanish) "Sometimes (something) (not sure, but it probably means) you give with you [whatever]". Which makes zero sense. Because the orignal Portuguese lacks an actual subject (the person giving out [whatever]). And you'd never saidd "Sometimes [subject] gives with you [object]".


As an aside:
It appears diaspora voting is either lessening or was greatly exaggerated in he past. Turkey, always accused of benefitting from rampant diaspora voting, received the following points in their semi-final:
12: Albania (what, is there millions of Turkish immigrants in Albania?)
10: San Marino (ditto?)
5: Switzerland
3: Georgia
2: Russia, Malta
1: The United Kingdom
0: Poland, Norway, Armenia, Serbia, Finland, Croatia, Iceland, Hungary, Portugal, Lithuania, Greece, Spain

I guess the Turkish diaspora forgot to vote Tuesday night.

 

[Chisato]

Interesting that Turkey got almost all of their points from Albania and San Marino (who use juries only I believe).

They only got 13 points from their "disapora" at maximum then. Maybe it has been overstated? It's true Hadise couldn't sing, but then neither could Eric Saade and he finished one place higher than her.

 

[Sean]

I speak Spanish (semi-fluently). I didn't understand a word they sang because:
* Portuguese and Spanish aren't that similar in many respects. They share a common origin but Spanish people and Portuguese people can't share in meaningful conversations with each other unless they're both speakinng the same language.
* The artists couldn't sing well and mostly just yelled at the top of their lungs, so even if I spoke the languge, it would've been hard for me to understand what they were singing about because I couldn't actually tell what the flying fig they were "singing").
* It's a (probable) joke entry about the Carnation Revolution (or whatever it was called) that occurred in Portuggal a good 50 or so years ago. By the flying fig would the Spanish like it enough to give it 8 points?! Also, 8 points implies it got either the people's 12 (probable) or at least some jury points to help it along.


Yes... yes it is.

Here's an excerpt of the lyrics in Portuguese:
"Por vezes dás contigo desanimado
Por vezes dás contigo a desconfiar
Por vezes dás contigo sobressaltado
Por vezes dás contigo a desesperar"

Spanish translation (not 100% guaranteeed to be accurate):
"A veces le dan desalentados
A veces se te dé la desconfianza
A veces darle un nuevo comienzo
A veces te dé a la desesperación"

That's a whole lot of difference besides a few common-ish word-stems. And the grammar is quite different.

Well then it must have been the music behind it and its melody

 

[jim3232]

If they (ESC) wanted to deal with block voting phenomenon, they could. A simple way would be to have the votes from every country multiplied by some factor (normalized), depending on geographical distance from the country voting. There could be geographical zones around each country, the nearest one getting no bonus, and scaling to the furthest one who would get a more significant bonus. More distant countries have supposedly more distant "cultural sound". If you think that this wouldn't be fair, just consider that the points as they are given today, are not proportional to votes. The -12 points may come from 200,000 votes while the -10 points may come from 40,000 votes and -6 points may come from only 5,000 votes.
I could go on and give more details on a possible algorithm, but I am sure no one would bother, nor is it my job - surely the ESC people could work something out. Of course, you may say, that it could get more complicated to understand voting and the competition might lose some fun. Well, it all depends on how well they would implement a more fair point-system - on the other hand, block-voting isn't that much fun as it is today, is it?

 

[Atsu]

I would like to add my point of view as a Spanish native about the Portuguese song.

First of all, yep, average Spaniards could not get the whole meaning of the song (mainly for the phonetics of Portuguese from Portugal, that are quite different from Spain's Castillian), but it's not true that the Portuguese song had zero sense for us. Not at all!! I'm sure Spaniards understood this song, at least the protest message.

And a part of the lyrics, I'm also sure that "A luta é alegria" had some kind of reminder effect of Chikilicuatre (Spain 2008). Since then, Spanish average audience of Eurovision are not Eurofan at all, they like to watch shows and it seems they love freaks (yep, it's kind of hypocritical to see how they're mocking of Eurovision but always gets an impressive share). So the 8 points from Spain to Portugal this year was not only a neighbour vote, your point is very VERY simple, FallenAngelII.

By the way! You made me laugh with your "Iberian vote" point Look at the Spanish 12points votes last 10 years:

2011 Italy (2nd)
2010 Germany (winner) (10p Romania)
2009 Norway (winner)
2008 Romania
2007 Romania
2006 Romania
2005 Romania
2004 Germany (10p Romania)
2003 Belgium (10p Romania)
2002 Latvia (winner)

Ehem... Do you see block voting? Or Romanian diaspora voting? Thanks God (or whatever) the jury was introduced, or we would still giving our 12p to Romania!

 

[FallenAngelII]

If they (ESC) wanted to deal with block voting phenomenon, they could. A simple way would be to have the votes from every country multiplied by some factor (normalized), depending on geographical distance from the country voting. There could be geographical zones around each country, the nearest one getting no bonus, and scaling to the furthest one who would get a more significant bonus. More distant countries have supposedly more distant "cultural sound". If you think that this wouldn't be fair, just consider that the points as they are given today, are not proportional to votes. The -12 points may come from 200,000 votes while the -10 points may come from 40,000 votes and -6 points may come from only 5,000 votes.
I could go on and give more details on a possible algorithm, but I am sure no one would bother, nor is it my job - surely the ESC people could work something out. Of course, you may say, that it could get more complicated to understand voting and the competition might lose some fun. Well, it all depends on how well they would implement a more fair point-system - on the other hand, block-voting isn't that much fun as it is today, is it?

Except that system would introduce more problems than it would solve.

Take Ukraine, example. The country has many neighbours. What if in 2012, Ukraine enters with an entry so good, anything short of 1st would be a travesty, but it gets only 3rd due to this point-scaling? Likewise, Russia is huge and has many neighbours. It also has many Ex-USSR-members.

You cannot make an algorithm that actually takes song quality into account. Any algorithm can potentially make great songs suffer simply for being from the "wrong" country.

I would like to add my point of view as a Spanish native about the Portuguese song.

First of all, yep, average Spaniards could not get the whole meaning of the song (mainly for the phonetics of Portuguese from Portugal, that are quite different from Spain's Castillian), but it's not true that the Portuguese song had zero sense for us. Not at all!! I'm sure Spaniards understood this song, at least the protest message.

I didn't say it didn't make any sense.

By the way! You made me laugh with your "Iberian vote" point Look at the Spanish 12points votes last 10 years:

Allow me to look further than just the 12 pointers.

2011:
Portugal 8 points (semi-final)
France 10 points, Italy 12 points (final)
Portugal did not make the final

2010:
Portugal 12 points (semi-final)

2009:
Portugal was not in the same semi-final as the one Spain voted in
Portugal 8 points (final)

2008 (before the return of the juries):
Portugal was not in the same semi-final as the one Spain voted in
Portugal 8 points (final)

2007:
Portugal 8 points (semi-final)
Portugal did not make the final

2006:
Andorra 8 points (semi-final)
Neither Andorra or Portugal made the final

2005:
Andorra 10 points (semi-final), Portugal 5 points (semi-final)
Neither made the final

2004:
Andorra 12 points, Portugal 6 points (semi-final)
Neither made the final

Are you saying there's no block voting going on here? That Portugal is the country Spain is awarded the most points to second only to Germany by pure coincidence? The fact that when Andorra was still a part of the contest, Spain always gave Andorra high marks, even in years where every single other nation in Europe ignored the Andorran entry and the fact that Spain almost always gives Portugal high marks, also even in years where the rest of Europe ignore the Portuguese entry, to be nothing more than a mere coincidence?

Because they don't share the same music industry (except maybe parts of Andorra and parts of Spain) and they don't even share the same language (again, besides maybe parts of Andorra and parts of Spain). They don't share the same artists (again, you know).

Yet Spain consistently gives high marks to Portugal pretty much each every single year.

 

[Sabiondo]

Ehem... Do you see block voting? Or Romanian diaspora voting? Thanks God (or whatever) the jury was introduced, or we would still giving our 12p to Romania!

But now will give us your 12 to the Italian Diaspora too every year.. no mencions that Italy now is the new ''Spain'' to give the 12 points to Romania.

 

[seb89]

I guess the Turkish diaspora forgot to vote Tuesday night.

I didn't know that about Portuguese, but I study Spanish, so I was wondering. Thanks for the explanation!

Like Turkish members said BEFORE the show: we have NOT the diaspora votes, because BELGIUM, THE NETHERLANDS, GERMANY & FRANCE didn't vote in that semi.

 

[FallenAngelII]

I didn't know that about Portuguese, but I study Spanish, so I was wondering. Thanks for the explanation!

Like Turkish members said BEFORE the show: we have NOT the diaspora votes, because BELGIUM, THE NETHERLANDS, GERMANY & FRANCE didn't vote in that semi.

So you're saying only those countries have high concentrations of Turkish diaspora votes? Are you then also saying that any points Turkey gains from any country other than those 4 should be counted as "legitimate" votes free from diaspora votes?

 

[Atsu]

I didn't say it didn't make any sense.

You were telling people who know neither Spanish nor Portuguese that the Portuguese lyrics were virtually unrecognisable for Spaniards. And that's not true.

Allow me to look further than just the 12 pointers.

...

Here are a lot of points:

-First of all, Andorra. I don't know if you know anything about this country, it seems not. As I've said before in this forum, I didn't like the Andorra-Spain situation at all. As every little country closely related to a larger one (in this case Spain), we have a great number of people from the "big country" (Spain) living in the "little country" (Andorra). But this is not an exclusive case of Andorra, we have San Marino with Italy, Cyprus with Greece and I'm sure that if Monaco and Liechtenstein participated, their votes would go to France and Switzerland/Austria. The situation with these countries has to change, indeed.

- The Spanish votes to Portugal... Sorry but I can't agree with you. Of course that we give more points to our neighbours (like in every single country in this competition!! EASTERN AND WESTERN COUNTRIES), but it's so funny the way you take the results that support your theory and you erase the results that contradict it (like for example, mixing results from the final and semi-final) . I can do the same to support my theory; points from Spain:
2011: 10p Italy (not a neighbour), 8p Romania (diaspora)
2010: 12p Germany (winner), 10p Romania (diaspora), 8p Armenia (diaspora?)
2009: 12p Norway (winner), 10p United Kingdom, 7p Romania (diaspora)
2008: 12p Romania, 10p Armenia
2007: 12p Romania, 10p Bulgaria (diaspora?), 8p Armenia
2006: 12p Romania, 10p Finland (it's known that Finland and Spain share thousands of km of their borders), 8p Armenia
2005: 12p Romania, 10p Denmark, 8p Greece
2004: 12p Germany, 10p Romania, 8p Ukraine (Ruslana)

Seriously, do I have to continue? No, if we look at the data the Spanish votes to its neighbours it's rather anecdotal. Spanish votes to Portugal are quite normal if we consider that Spain is the only neighbour of Portugal and there are many Portuguese living here. And that's much more anecdotal if we look at the votes from Spain to France last decade:
2011: 10p
2010: 2p
2009: 3p
2008: -
2007: -
2006: -
2005: -
2004: 4p
2003: -
2002: 8p

Yep, neighbour votes. If you don't see that diaspora voting has been much stronger than neighbour voting last years, sorry but you have a blindfold on your eyes.

Edit. Some mistakes, sorry.

 

[seb89]

So you're saying only those countries have high concentrations of Turkish diaspora votes? Are you then also saying that any points Turkey gains from any country other than those 4 should be counted as "legitimate" votes free from diaspora votes?

I only say that those countries give always high points to Turkey and that, you verify it, people said "we don't have the diaspora vote tonight". That's all I'm saying and I forgot Azerbaijan !

And it was a reaction to this sentence: It appears diaspora voting is either lessening or was greatly exaggerated in he past. Turkey, always accused of benefitting from rampant diaspora voting, received the following points in their semi-final

 

[Atsu]

But now will give us your 12 to the Italian Diaspora too every year.. no mencions that Italy now is the new ''Spain'' to give the 12 points to Romania.

Well, I think it's too early to say anything about Italy, as it's the first year after 13 that this country participates in the contest. But the 12p from Spain last Saturday were not only from the televotes, the jury had to vote high too (and we were not the only country that voted high to Italy, I don't know whether for the song or for the "comeback" effect). And yes, the 12p from Italy to Romania were strange strange...


Btw, FallenAngel, I would like to add that I'm not saying that the block voting doesn't exist at all, please don't misunderstand me. But I want to say that it's not so prevalent in the West as you are suggesting, and does exist in the whole continent (and of course it should be removed).

 

[AlekS]

Either way, it's clear the juries are also failing to vote on the song...and giving points to their neighbours as they always used to do in the past.

IMO the juries should consist of fans of the Eurovision who care about the best songs and performances doing well...not "professionals" who only care about high fiving their neighbours and marking down the competition.

I find it hard to believe that we can put cultural differences aside when judging the songs and performances, yet so called professionals cannot.

"So called professionals" aren't there to please your butt and vote how YOU want.

 

[Rusch]

Thinking about this, I see only one solution: Smaller countries are voting together as a block with only one vote. So instead of 43 votings there will be only 30 or so. But honestly, this is something nobody will like. So we must accept this.

 

[AlekS]

This time we sent a partially Slavic entry which appealed to all Slavic contries (with surprising votes from Sweden, Albania, Turkey, Greece, Cyprus and Malta).

Yes, we sent something which appealed to ex-USSR and Balkans (which haven't supported us so much since Ruslana and Verka).
If it makes us guilty in something - shoot us
Shoot us for voting for Azerbaijan (just like San Marino and Iceland), shoot us for prefering a rock song (12 to Georgia, I don't remember if we gave 8 or 10 pts to maNga last year), shoot us for liking Moldova (which sent a folky entry, such music is popular here)... not that these countries used to send crappy entries during last years.
The only thing which bothers me is giving high points to Russia constantly. But we don't give them 12 for a while, usually it's 8.

I voted for Georgia myself so accusing us in voting/receiving points for our neighbours ....
I think 400 million people have a right to express their taste. Calling it "blind voting" just because you or your televoters disagree means having a 0 respect. Not only to our entry but to our people as well.
Germany won in 2010. Italy became 2nd in 2011. So instead of blaming someone whom you hate better watch at yourself and send a song which appeals to us.
We aren't supposed to vote for something which we don't like.
Western entries didn't vote for us en mass... I don't say anything about them using protest voting. So maybe it's time to start respecting our taste finally?

So instead urging EBU to change the rules and get rid of neighbour voting - get some respect. Or even better - send something which appeals to us. Like Norway 2009 or Turkey 2010.
We don't force you to vote for our entries so don't force us to vote for your entries.