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New voting system - removal of juries from the semi - global vote

Grinch

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In a perfect world juries would vote in the semis and televoters in the Final. but the world is corrupted
In a perfect world, there would be no juries at all
 

hijirio

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I think it's a bit selfish to want only juries or only televotes just because you like their choices more.
To be honest it's not really a matter of my personal taste being more similiar to the televote results.
Even if I liked the juries' choices more, I would still be against them from an ethical point of view.

The votes of 6 people being equal to hundreds of thousands of public voters (who actually even PAY to vote for their favorite) is very unfair.
Either remove all televoting and make it an X-factor where only a few juries decide everything, or preferably and in accordance with the contest's tradition make the contest totally democratic and use only the public vote. Or in an ideal world, introduce more juries, like at least a few hundreds of professionals from each country, and choose people who are familiar with the contest's spirit, not a random TV host or a papi who has a doctorate degree on Mozart.
 

empo21

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I would've preferred a jury revamp (like having 10-20 jurors, split into smaller groups and watching the shows separately, etc, etc) before completely removing juries from the semi-finals xshrug

Weird how, every other year or so, Eurovision adapts a quirky little twist from Melodifestivalen 🧐
 

KazNew

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Totally agree with the idea that it would have been possible for a jury reform rather than completely scrapping their vote in the semis. This is obviously operating under the assumption that last year's jury rigging was the catalyst for these changes, but we could definitely help to reduce the rigging by:
  1. Increasing each jury size
  2. Going back to the pre-2021 system where jury votes are NOT anonymous
  3. Requiring jury members to write a short statement justifying their rankings and explaining why they placed each song in each place.
Point 3 might seem tedious, but it would also ensure that people who volunteer to be part of a country's jury actually want to be there and have a genuine interest in the contest.

Another option I've seen floating around is the idea that we have 5 jury qualifiers and 5 televote qualifiers (top 5 jury + top 5 televote who haven't already qualified with the jury).
Doing it this way (rather than top 5 televote + top 5 jury who haven't already qualified with the televote) would ensure that countries who place 5-10 in the televote would still be able to qualify as long as they receive a high jury score too.

This system would have resulted in:
 

Chalphon

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I'm definately worried about the online votes from the whole world. I like the idea in theory but it opens up a whole can of worms and buying your way into the finals might now be a possible biproduct by paying internet trolls to vote for you.

Ditching the jurys in the semis I don't really mind as long as they are still there for the final. It might even make the final result less predictable for the betting sites.
 

Ezio

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Totally agree with the idea that it would have been possible for a jury reform rather than completely scrapping their vote in the semis. This is obviously operating under the assumption that last year's jury rigging was the catalyst for these changes, but we could definitely help to reduce the rigging by:
  1. Increasing each jury size
  2. Going back to the pre-2021 system where jury votes are NOT anonymous
  3. Requiring jury members to write a short statement justifying their rankings and explaining why they placed each song in each place.
Point 3 might seem tedious, but it would also ensure that people who volunteer to be part of a country's jury actually want to be there and have a genuine interest in the contest.

Another option I've seen floating around is the idea that we have 5 jury qualifiers and 5 televote qualifiers (top 5 jury + top 5 televote who haven't already qualified with the jury).
Doing it this way (rather than top 5 televote + top 5 jury who haven't already qualified with the televote) would ensure that countries who place 5-10 in the televote would still be able to qualify as long as they receive a high jury score too.

This system would have resulted in:

where is my credit for this post?
 

midnightsun

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So… just for clarification… maybe someone can explain further…

From the Official Eurovision site:

  • Viewer votes will decide countries qualifying from Semi-Finals
  • Viewers in non-participating countries will be able to vote online
  • Jury votes will be combined with votes from the global audience to decide final result

Those watching in the rest of the world will be able to vote via a secure online platform using a credit card from their country, and their votes, once added together, will be converted into points that will have the same weight as one participating country in both of the Semi-Finals and the Grand Final.

Did I get it right that all televotes from non participating countries are gathered, added and the result counts as ONE (global) country?

But what does it mean "Jury votes will be combined with votes from the global audience to decide final result“ ?

Is it the same as it has been the past years or do they go back to the roots and only show the combined results or does it even mean the global vote (non participating countries) are added to the jury vote?
 

DanielLuis

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So… just for clarification… maybe someone can explain further…

From the Official Eurovision site:



Did I get it right that all televotes from non participating countries are gathered, added and the result counts as ONE (global) country?

But what does it mean "Jury votes will be combined with votes from the global audience to decide final result“ ?

Is it the same as it has been the past years or do they go back to the roots and only show the combined results or does it even mean the global vote (non participating countries) are added to the jury vote?
I think that's just another way of saying "Jury votes will be combined with public vote to decide the final results", as in, saying that the final result will still be 50/50 as before.
They just phrased it that way to emphasize that now the televoting won't consist only of the European audience but the global audience as a whole.
 

Deleted member 12761

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I think a mix between juries and televoters is good. The juries just need to be reformed. I'm glad they're gone from the SF tho. Some of my favorite acts flopped in the Semis because of the juries and their love for ballads. The juries have killed the fun a little too much. I'm excited for the global vote (as long as it's safe). Eurovision has grown so much and I think this is a good way to grow the fandom outside of Europe and Australia.
 

empo21

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In the long term, this is going to end up being a bad move on EBU's part. Jury/Televote has been a staple and there was no reason to remove it.

It's upsetting that when faced with an issue (jury vote fraud), instead of trying to fix said issue, they (Martin Ö) just decide to remove the entire jury voting - which is the most extreme measure to take. Juries have been the same since 2009 and maybe it was time for a revamp of the way the they are formed, total head-count and monitoring on them - none of those was tried before removing the whole jury for the semis, which strikes me as poor decision making.

My opinion is less about countries being screwed/blessed* with this rule and whether it's going to affect the final results. It's more about how a huge organisation would rather tear the whole house away because of a broken fixture.

*although this rule does severely hinder countries like Malta, Czechia, Australia who are more jury friendly countries.

Not to mention 100% televote for semis and a production decided running order is just production having too much power on which countries get the sweet spots.
 

midnightsun

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I‘m quite torn because I actually want the juries gone since they are much more and easier to be influenced than the televoters.

On the other hand, I‘m a sucker for big ballads and great voices and some of them only made it with the help of juries.

But, in the end, one or two really good ballads will make it nonetheless, even if there are no juries. Some people love ballads too.

So, after weighing all the pros and cons, I think this is the best solution they can come up with. People only decide which songs make it to the final but in the final, these songs are judged both by televoters and professionally by juries.

Also, people from all over the world can vote now, and their vote is combined as one country, which is a good idea because different countries = different tastes. Only the best songs will manage to gather points from many countries. It shows if a song has international appeal.
 

Realest

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In the long term, this is going to end up being a bad move on EBU's part. Jury/Televote has been a staple and there was no reason to remove it.

It's upsetting that when faced with an issue (jury vote fraud), instead of trying to fix said issue, they (Martin Ö) just decide to remove the entire jury voting - which is the most extreme measure to take. Juries have been the same since 2009 and maybe it was time for a revamp of the way the they are formed, total head-count and monitoring on them - none of those was tried before removing the whole jury for the semis, which strikes me as poor decision making.

My opinion is less about countries being screwed/blessed* with this rule and whether it's going to affect the final results. It's more about how a huge organisation would rather tear the whole house away because of a broken fixture.

*although this rule does severely hinder countries like Malta, Czechia, Australia who are more jury friendly countries.

Not to mention 100% televote for semis and a production decided running order is just production having too much power on which countries get the sweet spots.

Im pretty sure the EBU didnt get rid of the Juries in the Semi because of the Corruption-Scandal, otherwise they would have eliminated them in the Final as well.

Imo the Reason for this Rulechange is solely Azerbaijans Qualification with 0 TV-Points.

The EBU will never ever get rid again of the Juries. They are scared that Songs like Moldova end up winning without Juries.
 

Mainshow

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I‘m quite torn because I actually want the juries gone since they are much more and easier to be influenced than the televoters.

On the other hand, I‘m a sucker for big ballads and great voices and some of them only made it with the help of juries.

But, in the end, one or two really good ballads will make it nonetheless, even if there are no juries. Some people love ballads too.

So, after weighing all the pros and cons, I think this is the best solution they can come up with. People only decide which songs make it to the final but in the final, these songs are judged both by televoters and professionally by juries.

Also, people from all over the world can vote now, and their vote is combined as one country, which is a good idea because different countries = different tastes. Only the best songs will manage to gather points from many countries. It shows if a song has international appeal.


Indeed, entries like :au: 2022 still qualify (:az: and :ch: don´t but I wouldn´t describe them as "amazing ballads" even though I really liked both songs).

The huge advantage the new rule provides, however, is that it´s more unlikely to get :0: points in televoting in the GF because the EBU makes sure that all countries in the Final finished Top 10 in the televoting in the semi finals.
Granted, it´s still possible for a few Big 5 countries to get :0: points (like :de: :uk: :es: 2021 if they all sent crap) but we won´t be seeing :0: to :cz: (2016), :0: to :at: (2017) or :0: to :ch: (2022) anymore which will also be less "embarrassing" for artists in the green room.
 

empo21

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Im pretty sure the EBU didnt get rid of the Juries in the Semi because of the Corruption-Scandal, otherwise they would have eliminated them in the Final as well.

Imo the Reason for this Rulechange is solely Azerbaijans Qualification with 0 TV-Points.

The EBU will never ever get rid again of the Juries. They are scared that Songs like Moldova end up winning without Juries.

I have a hard time believing this is the main reason for the rule change, as it is a very rare occurence. Even if it was, my original point of 'fix, don't throw away' still stands. The new voting system of giving out 2 sets of point is beneficial for countries that have huge tele/jury differences. A song can get 50pts from jury, but 200 from televote and they'll likely enter the top 10.

Croatia 2021 was top 10 in both jury and tele and NQd, because they hovered over the 10th place line in both, while two countries that did worse that them in jury ended up qualifying because their stronger score made up for the lack of points from the weaker score.

The old 1 set of votes per country (pre 2013*) balanced that out and countries had to perform good in both categories in order to score points. If a song got 50pts from Jury and 200 from televote they're more likely to be mid-table. Azerbaijan would've also NQd last year if that was the case.

Meanwhile the 2013-2015 made it way too punishing for countries with huge tele/jury differences. Montenegro 2013 high tele, low jury - low placement. Azerbaijan 2014 - high jury/low tele - the final score was closer to televote so those high jury votes didn't matter because of the low televote.

Indeed, entries like :au: 2022 still qualify (:az: and :ch: don´t but I wouldn´t describe them as "amazing ballads" even though I really liked both songs).

The huge advantage the new rule provides, however, is that it´s more unlikely to get :0: points in televoting in the GF because the EBU makes sure that all countries in the Final finished Top 10 in the televoting in the semi finals.
Granted, it´s still possible for a few Big 5 countries to get :0: points (like :de: :uk: :es: 2021 if they all sent crap) but we won´t be seeing :0: to :cz: (2016), :0: to :at: (2017) or :0: to :ch: (2022) anymore which will also be less "embarrassing" for artists in the green room.

Again, rare ocurrence, although more likely than the above example. Jury :0:s will still stick out and 6 auto-finalists are the most likely to score 0 in televote anyway. Australia dropped from 74pts to 2pts, Czechia from 125 to 5.
 
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HarryUK

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I disagree that the juries weren't removed because of the voting scandal. It's a way of reducing the corruption at least - but juries are needed in the final balance out the drunk Brits like me that vote for the Moldovan novelty act every year after three bottles of rosé
 

Leydan

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It actually was because of the voting scandal last year^ Sieste Bakker confirmed it on Twitter:


I agree it was a radical decision, but if juries were doing what they're supposed to be doing and not spend their time colluding with one another and 'behaving' worse than televote 'bloc voting' ever did then perhaps the juries would still be in the semis.
 

Realest

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Ok, interesting. Then I take everthing back.
 

HarryUK

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Do we still get shows the day before each televised show? Asking for purely selfish ticket-related reasons :ROFLMAO: I only managed SF1 standing tickets for the inevitably cancelled 2020 contest, so I want to increase my chances as much as I can
 
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