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A fair voting system?

cegs5

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I don't know about you but I do not wanna live in a world where Romania came top 5 in 2017, a world where Moldova finished 2nd in 2022, and a world where Croatia finished in the top 10 in 2022.

A WORLD WHERE NORWAY LITERALLY WON IN 2019?
Bless, that's the Eurovision I like... still having artsy and "serious" artists winning like Måneskin, Salvador Sobral or Il Volo, and others doing well like Barbara Pravi or Gjon's Tears.

Even if we have songs and artists I don't like doing well, I would accept them as the people's choice.

I just don't want to have mediocre manufactured winning songs ready made for jury taste. Eurovision is becoming boring with tons of similar tv talent show entries.
 

aeon

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Juries have failed to judge by criteria given and in many cases colluded with each other. They are not accountable.

Entries should be only judged by the public - but tv presenters to appeal to voters to judge not by politics, ethnicity or other non artistic reason. It is not a popularity contest of countries or who has the biggest diaspora.
 

rasmuslights

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Bless, that's the Eurovision I like... still having artsy and "serious" artists winning like Måneskin, Salvador Sobral or Il Volo, and others doing well like Barbara Pravi or Gjon's Tears.

Even if we have songs and artists I don't like doing well, I would accept them as the people's choice.

I just don't want to have mediocre manufactured winning songs ready made for jury taste. Eurovision is becoming boring with tons of similar tv talent show entries.

You're saying that as if the televote didn't eat up Poland, Norway and Cyprus this year and absolutely robbed entries like Spain, Portugal, Austria and Estonia.

The jury liking Loreen, Alika, Noa is not surprising since they all had something that needed to be rewarded, Loreen was a complete package, Alika had one of the best vocals and Noa (who by the way did just as well with the televote) had a fantastic performance. All of them deserved the top 5 with the juries even though you personally don't like the songs.

That's the problem YOU would accept them as the people's choice. But what about the artists who are thinking about entering eurovision? Do you think Maria Jose Llergo from Spain for example would ever consider doing eurovision if Blanca came dead last with 5 points this year?

Are you seriously referring to Loreen as a mediocre manufactured winning song? I admit it's not a pinnacle of originality but it's far from mediocre. :)

No offence ofc :) I don't want to argue:)
 

rasmuslights

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LOL. Maybe to listen to great music and for great artists to get exposure. I come to eurovision for artists like Blanche, Blanca Paloma, Maro, Systur, Loreen, Douwe Bob, Cornelia Jakobs, Salvador Sobral, Barbara Pravi, Maneskin...

Not for the Voice winners or joke acts. :)
 

rasmuslights

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Also, something to take into consideration:

"The televoting must be reformed. Here is an (extreme) example of why: Germany's place in points: 24/26, Albania'a place in points: 10/26. Germany's place on average place per country: 16/26, Albania's place on average place per country: 22/26. So Germany got way more votes per country on average than Albania but received way fewer points in total. These are the most extreme examples and Sweden and Finland for example are still 1 and 2. Fun fact: Finland got an average placing of 2,0 while Sweden "only" got 4,5."

This was a comment I saw on Youtube. And it makes a great point about how powerful the diaspora actually is.
 

cegs5

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You're saying that as if the televote didn't eat up Poland, Norway and Cyprus this year and absolutely robbed entries like Spain, Portugal, Austria and Estonia.

The jury liking Loreen, Alika, Noa is not surprising since they all had something that needed to be rewarded, Loreen was a complete package, Alika had one of the best vocals and Noa (who by the way did just as well with the televote) had a fantastic performance. All of them deserved the top 5 with the juries even though you personally don't like the songs.

That's the problem YOU would accept them as the people's choice. But what about the artists who are thinking about entering eurovision? Do you think Maria Jose Llergo from Spain for example would ever consider doing eurovision if Blanca came dead last with 5 points this year?

Are you seriously referring to Loreen as a mediocre manufactured winning song? I admit it's not a pinnacle of originality but it's far from mediocre. :)

No offence ofc :) I don't want to argue:)
I think you are underestimating the televoting. It's not that any joke or gimmicky emtry would definitely get support, and "quality" ones would be ditched. Yes, it will happen that not all the valuable artistic elite will score well, but that happens with a jury as well.

I don't think it will have an impact on the serious artist taking part. Patricia Kaas, Anouk, Salvador Sobral, Pastora Soler, etc. they all took part after their countries flop badly year after year.

As for Tattoo, yes I find it uber boring pretentious song manufactured in a camp, ensambling melodies that already existed, under the mask of an artsy staging trying too hard, with a very good marketing. I get that many people genuinaly like it, but in the universe of pop ballads it is nothing special.
 

rasmuslights

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I think you are underestimating the televoting. It's not that any joke or gimmicky emtry would definitely get support, and "quality" ones would be ditched. Yes, it will happen that not all the valuable artistic elite will score well, but that happens with a jury as well.

I don't think it will have an impact on the serious artist taking part. Patricia Kaas, Anouk, Salvador Sobral, Pastora Soler, etc. they all took part after their countries flop badly year after year.

As for Tattoo, yes I find it uber boring pretentious song manufactured in a camp, ensambling melodies that already existed, under the mask of an artsy staging trying too hard, with a very good marketing. I get that many people genuinaly like it, but in the universe of pop ballads it is nothing special.

No, I do think the televote is capable of being tasteful and rewarding quality performances but not always and that's when the jury comes to help (most of time sometimes they underrate certain entries as well).

Patricia Kaas also did MUCH better with the juries.

We need both of them, I'm sorry. + it's easier for the artists when they know they at least did well with one side - either the jury or the televote.

Anyway, I just think most of this discourse is happening because people aren't happy with the winner and acting like Loreen came 6th in televote when she came 2nd. Kä'ärijä actually did well with the jury. I thought he was going to be around 8th place. So be happy.
 

Verjamem

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Käärja isnt the first Televote-Winner to not win overall, and he wont be the last.
That's why I don't have a problem with only Kaarija not winning.

LOL. Maybe to listen to great music and for great artists to get exposure. I come to eurovision for artists like Blanche, Blanca Paloma, Maro, Systur, Loreen, Douwe Bob, Cornelia Jakobs, Salvador Sobral, Barbara Pravi, Maneskin...
If you wanted to use it at as a argument, you should include, when you started to follow Eurovision. If you did around 2016-2018, your point is valid, because you could really come because of that. I know many people, who are following Eurovision since 2000s and are bitching about "contest's reputation", "supporting artsy music". Like it's so much important, what society think about ESC or what contest should be like. For me, 2022 was awful in terms of diversity and entertainment, but I will always watch Eurovision because of competition, rivalry between countries, tension, drama. Honestly, I didn't want anyone to win last year, but I watched the show anyway. I have put money on Loreen, but I was still hoping for Kaarija to win. Some things will always remain.
 

rasmuslights

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That's why I don't have a problem with only Kaarija not winning.


If you wanted to use it at as a argument, you should include, when you started to follow Eurovision. If you did around 2016-2018, your point is valid, because you could really come because of that. I know many people, who are following Eurovision since 2000s and are bitching about "contest's reputation", "supporting artsy music". Like it's so much important, what society think about ESC or what contest should be like. For me, 2022 was awful in terms of diversity and entertainment, but I will always watch Eurovision because of competition, rivalry between countries, tension, drama. Honestly, I didn't want anyone to win last year, but I watched the show anyway. I have put money on Loreen, but I was still hoping for Kaarija to win. Some things will always remain.

Yeah, I started watching it in 2015.

For it isn't important what society thinks about it since I'm very open with my love for eurovision! :)
I don't watch eurovision for entertainment in the sense of "fun" since I usually hate entries that bring "fun" to eurovision.
 

dogmeat

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The problem with 100% televote is song quality (or even lack thereof) will be thrown by the wayside in favor of who has the flashiest stage show. Why do you think the juries came back in 2009 in the first place? It was because of what I just mentioned, combined with rampant diaspora voting. The jury vote is needed as much as the televote is, it keeps each other in check. Eurovision is for ALL types of songs, not just the pop bangers and the "yass queen slay" types with over-the-top dance breaks
The juries came back as a racist kneejerk reaction to Eastern European countries winning in the 00s. And they're doing their best to stunt creativity in the contest. What do acts like Konstrakta, Zdob si Zdub, and Kaarija have in common? They're daring, outside the box, and unique - everything ESC juries dislike. If you really believe Eurovision is "for ALL types of songs, not just the pop bangers", you should pray for juries to be removed. They're mostly people involved in pop music and give top points to the most safe radio-friendly pop songs.
 

Ana Raquel

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It is important to reflect and question what (western) society sees as serious, quality music and why a song would be considered bad/a joke
 

Leydan

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It is important to reflect and question what (western) society sees as serious, quality music and why a song would be considered bad/a joke

Great point. From a British perspective - that still is alive and kicking today. In terms of Eurovision anything Non-English and local sounding is often labelled as a joke song and not serious music. Which ranges anything from Cha Cha Cha to Shum and all inbetween and beyond. It's an attitude made because of how internalised and 'English' our music industry and what charts here is, so anything really localised to other (Eastern European) countries, typically carrying a lot of ethno elements comes across as cheap typical eurovision music - mainly because it's the only place they hear it. Then the audience votes accordingly. Ofc some can be labelled as not serious (which imo isn't necessarily a bad thing) but usually the music is quite serious, however our audiences don't always quite interpret it that way.
 
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HarryUK

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I sincerely hope that they do not remove the juries, but reform them - an age rule would be a good start. At least half of jurors if not the majority should be under 35 for example - for too long, ballads have ruled the roost with juries.
 

rasmuslights

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I really don't think they will remove them. Afterall it's exciting to watch the reveal of the televote scores at the end.
 
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